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migkilr
08-28-2003, 10:06 AM
Ok, I've got a question. Under the current rules (CCS) an Amateur needs 500 points in the previous 12 months to qualify for expert. Since we are splitting, is there a plan for transferring these points to the next year (and a possible new points system). This isn't an issue for class championships since they start at zero for the new season anyway. My concern is that the Am to Ex qualification points will get zeroized as we shift to the new system and those of us who wanted to upgrade sometime in the next 12 months will lose our points and have to start over. Or will the points system remain pretty much the same??? Thanks!

David Branyon
08-28-2003, 05:37 PM
Jon,
I'm not a BOD member, so you should wait for the official scoop from them, but I'm pretty sure CMRA's promotion to expert is not based on the 500 point rule you mention. At the end of each year, a set of results are posted which basically tabulates your average finish as a percentage of the field. You could think of it as your percentile in racing. Finishing 6th in an 11 bike field is same as finishing 2nd in a 3 bike field (i.e. 50th percentile). Then, there is some cuttoff percentile above which you get promoted to expert. There is also a minimum number of races (10 last year) to get bumped up.

It is not based on an accumulation of points and there is no carry-over or anything from one year to the next. If at any time, you feel you are ready to become an expert, let someone on the BOD know, and I believe they will review your request and possibly grant it, even mid-season.

I'm not on the BOD, but I did stay at a HI-Express last night. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Nohl Haeckel
09-02-2003, 03:15 PM
Im interested in hearing about this also, I read the rule book the same way Jon does. and in sec 2 Para 2.2(a)4 It says any rider accumulating 500 points in a 12 month period is eligible for an expert licence and the CMRA annex says nothing about A " cutoff percentile" That I saw but I might have missed it. And a 12 month period could be from June to June . It does not say "in one season" Eager to hear for BOD on this one :p

Brooks Gremmels
09-03-2003, 08:36 AM
Folks, I am not sure how many times we have to keep saying that the CMRA has not for years, if ever, used seasonal points to make this determination. We try to be objective in terms of guaging a riders performance against other competitors. There are Amateurs who won championships last season who remained Amateurs this season. OK?
Brooks

Nohl Haeckel
09-03-2003, 12:05 PM
I have never heard that. But then again I have not been with the CMRA for Years And Years to get a chance to hear it .Some of us are comming from other racing orginizations and the only rules we see are the ones we can read in the "rule book" so please excuse our ignorance and the lack of hearing the rules by "Word of Mouth" /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Chuck Ergle
09-03-2003, 12:31 PM
For a very long time, CRRC/CMRA followed the WERA format (we were a WERA afflilate for a long time) that promoted the top five novices (I prefer that term to "amateur") in each class from the previous season to expert (even if you were fifth in a five racer class, this means you would get promoted).

I seem to remember some racers sandbagging enough to finish 6th or worse in season points (when they could), because they were uncomfortable with becoming experts; I also remember Charles or Connie sidling up to someone with either: "you should be an expert next year" or "you should stay novice next year".

After the split with WERA, we came up with a more objective numeric index that took finishes, number of races, and entries in those races, into account in deciding who should be promoted. Last year, we didn't promote that many novices to expert; however, you can expect a much bigger baby expert class next year, mainly because many more novices have had an extra year and now really deserve the promotion.

Anyone can petition the BoD and the Race Director to be moved up, or moved down, anytime during the year; however, if this happens, they lose all points accumulated up to that point. We've moved a couple of people up this year that I can remember.

migkilr
09-03-2003, 02:43 PM
After the split with WERA, we came up with a more objective numeric index


It doesn't seem to me that anything could be more "objective" than the "top five" in each class, perhaps you meant that the CMRA moved to a more "subjective" policy. From your post and the one prior I really get the feeling that the promotion to expert is a highly subjective process here in the CMRA. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... assuming that you have enough resources to individually monitor every novice in the organization, which I doubt the CMRA has... Bottom line, the small guys who aren't "good ol' boys" might like to have an OBJECTIVE set of requirements for obtaining expert status so they can SET SPECIFIC GOALS and not wonder if the race director or the BOD likes my hairstyle or my persuasive writing in order to get upgraded to expert. Oh, and it also allows these people (who I'm sure already have a full plate) to put their attention elsewhere. Far be it for me to offer criticism without a solution so I propose....
1) In order to advance to expert, a novice must acquire 20 points over the course of 1 race season.
2) The point schedule is as follows: 10 points for first, 9 points for second etc.... Every rider will receive 1 point for finishing the race.
3)Only ONE class will count for the point total ie... 15 points in middleweight superbike and 15 points in middleweight grand prix = see ya in novice next year.
4) Three race minimum to move up to expert. (per class of course, meaning someone couldn't run 3 of some of the 30 or so novice races on sunday and qualify)
5) Once you reach 40 points you will be FORCED to move up to expert. No more sandbagging!!! When there are novices that have proven that they can run very well with the experts (possibly contending for a class championship) what in the hell are they doing in novice?! Well I'll just keep that to myself...

This point system can be massaged somewhat to fit the needs of the CMRA, but I feel that something like this will allow the novices to know where they stand. If you aren't finishing in the top ten consistently, then you don't go up to expert. If you're winning every novice race (hmmmmm) then you get booted up to expert. If you're wondering where I got this idea, its very similar to the program in the WSMC (willow springs) and it works very well. The WSMC has grown quite a few AMA superstars, for a club that is smaller than the CMRA. Just my 2 cents, and I realize (and appreciate) that most of the people making the policy decisions in the CMRA do this on their own free time, without being paid which allows guys like me that have no free time to race.

SteveZX6R
09-03-2003, 03:26 PM
Chuck, I am one of those who went expert in mid season. Let me first say to anyone who is worried about being forced to go expert, you have nothing to worry about, its been my experience in dealing with the board that they are very fair and consciousness, if you feel you should not be there ,Iam sure they would let you stay novice.For me I always get a bad start in every race ( no tire warmers, register late) and end up going past 15 other riders and getting stuck behind someone who is 6 seconds per lap slower than me, this gives me a 12th place finish out of 40 riders, when I see other riders that I am just as fast as finishing in 4 or 5 place, I just could not get up that far in 6 or 8 laps. My point is I would rather finish 12/15 in expert and run at my own speed than to finish 12/40 in novice behind slower people. To go faster and win you have to ride with faster racers not slower ones. Just my two cents

darick
09-03-2003, 05:25 PM
For me I always get a bad start in every race ( no tire warmers, register late) and end up going past 15 other riders and getting stuck behind someone who is 6 seconds per lap slower than me, this gives me a 12th place finish out of 40 riders, when I see other riders that I am just as fast as finishing in 4 or 5 place, I just could not get up that far in 6 or 8 laps. My point is I would rather finish 12/15 in expert and run at my own speed than to finish 12/40 in novice behind slower people. To go faster and win you have to ride with faster racers not slower ones. Just my two cents

I agree.....move me up now boys /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Bryan Norton
09-03-2003, 05:55 PM
Jon,
You are missing out on a big problem with using a points system such as that. It gives no weight to the classes that have more bikes.

So I am a slow novice, and I race in Supersingles, where there is only 1-2 entries per race. Rgardless of how slow I am, I will be moved up to expert?

The system that was devised gives weight based on the number of entries in your race. This let people who finish 1st in a field of 3 fewer points than someone who finishes 1st in a field of 20. It also takes into account people who only raced half a year.

This is also why "top 5 in each class" didn't work in the past. It promoted slow riders who raced in small fields, and didn't promote fast riders who finished at the end of the year in 6th.(crashes/DNS/etc)

SteveZX6R
09-03-2003, 06:41 PM
Lets go Darick, you'll love being expert,just contact the BOD, I got my answer fast (about a week) and Bryan your right about our index system for moving to expert, it moves the faster people up for the right reasons.

Jeff6R
09-03-2003, 07:45 PM
IMO the system used last year was a good one. We all got to see the spread sheet and have it explained and it made sense to me (I hope we'll get all that this year too). I think the only thing that was very subjective about it was where the dividing line between AM & EX was set, and that made more sense than just picking a number out of the air and saying we'll always use it.

waytooslow
09-03-2003, 10:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bryan Norton:
Jon,
You are missing out on a big problem with using a points system such as that. It gives no weight to the classes that have more bikes.

So I am a slow novice, and I race in Supersingles, where there is only 1-2 entries per race. Rgardless of how slow I am, I will be moved up to expert?

The system that was devised gives weight based on the number of entries in your race. This let people who finish 1st in a field of 3 fewer points than someone who finishes 1st in a field of 20. It also takes into account people who only raced half a year.

This is also why "top 5 in each class" didn't work in the past. It promoted slow riders who raced in small fields, and didn't promote fast riders who finished at the end of the year in 6th.(crashes/DNS/etc) </div></div>Exactly, I for one thing this is to easy to move people that are not ready to be expert... of course I still have a shirt what do I know (and I plan on wearing it forever /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif , I even sleep in it so I don't get run over in my dreams ).

Say someone is riding in the new motard class, not "super", with only having 2-3 entries/race, by Jon's system, a novice is probably going to be bumped just for showing up and finishing.

The present system works well, and I personally don't see reason enough to change it, unless the BOD comes up with a better one, I vote stay the same. Change just for the sake of change, is not a solution here. Since the present system works.

Scott

David Branyon
09-03-2003, 11:09 PM
Let's not lose track of one item here: whatever we are doing should be in the rulebook. I am sure that will be rectified with the new CMRA-only rulebook, but I do remember the frustrations of finding things out as a beginner that were not written down or were written incorrectly but it didn't matter because "everyone knows that." When you're starting, all you know is how to surf the website and find the map to the track and the rulebook. Let's keep those folks in mind as we go forward. They are the future of our sport after all. My $.02.

migkilr
09-04-2003, 09:32 AM
Thanks David, that's exactly what I meant!! Everybody here is talking about "last year they did this and that...." How is a beginner supposed to know this stuff if it is not written down somewhere? Whatever the plan is, let's write it down so more than just the 10 people at the top and their buddies know what's going on. And I Strongly believe that we need to take all subjectivity out of the process whatever we do (of course allowing for the occasional obvious exception).
Ok, a few of you guys were saying "what about the classes with only 2-3 bikes..." hmmmm, doesn't this question answer itself. I don't want to start this whole debate on why we have guys racing pit bikes on the track on a race weekend, because I know I'd lose, but it still perplexes me as I sit there in the pits and watch this happen. I'll use the WSMC as an example again since that was my last club: There were 3 novice classes with 3 novice races on race weekend. No novice middleweight superbike, middleweight GP, middleweight supersport, middleweight green bike, middleweight yellow bike, middleweight cool guy, middleweight nerd, etc.... races, there was just one. But the novice learned more in that weekend because he got WAY more track time in the form of PRACTICE, he didn't sit there for hours on end with his $8,000+ bike that he spent his last dime on watching guys race pit bikes. Let me put it this way, I don't show up to Daytona on NASCAR weekend with a '73 Pinto. I'm done, bottom line is, lets write the upgrade requirements down in the new rulebook, thanks.

Bryan Norton
09-04-2003, 10:27 AM
For what it's worth guys, I am writing the rulebook, and am including just about everything in there. It will include refund processes, race day process, CMRA officials and chain of command, and the points system.

I hadn't thought to put the actual formula in the rulebook for moving up novice to expert - good idea, I will make sure it's in there.

Rich Desmond
09-04-2003, 11:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bryan Norton:
For what it's worth guys, I am writing the rulebook, and am including just about everything in there. It will include refund processes, race day process, CMRA officials and chain of command, and the points system.

I hadn't thought to put the actual formula in the rulebook for moving up novice to expert - good idea, I will make sure it's in there. </div></div>Just don't forget to put a "God" clause in there, to give the BOD some discretion.

Nohl Haeckel
09-04-2003, 12:31 PM
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif :p I guess I can't race m/w Nerdbike anymore

migkilr
09-04-2003, 12:54 PM
Yeah, and I've been meaning to talk to you about removing it from my porch, its scaring away all the chicks. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif :p

Nohl Haeckel
09-04-2003, 01:21 PM
I know the "chicks" you are refering to are baby chickens and im sure they dont mind :rolleyes:

Mitchel
09-05-2003, 12:50 PM
I think the indexing system is a good one considering everything. If I had a suggestion to make it better, it would be to increase the minimum number of races before being considered in the index. Last year it was 10 races minimum. I think 15 or 20 would be a better number so people could gain more experience before being moved to expert.

Bob Cronin
09-07-2003, 07:34 PM
Has any thought been put into what to do about the Amateur guys running in the Endurance format?
These guys for whatever their reasons, (mostly cash), came into the club as Amateurs and are running consistant times as most Experts.
I'm not one of them but I do know a few that are at that level. How do we test them out or view them to be bumped? If all they do is Endurance than what will be the plan to review their status? Is their only way up the ladder by way of Sprints?

Jeff6R
09-07-2003, 09:56 PM
They can make a request to the BOD to be bumped.

Brooks Gremmels
09-08-2003, 09:44 AM
Bob, you are raising a legitmate question that doesn't have an objective solution as far as I know. There are a number of riders who never move from the endurance series to the spints. Ergo, unless they request to be moved up to Expert they are carried as Amateurs for the duration. Of course the issue is getting them classified correctly if they begin sprint racing. Their observed times and comparative finishes are the only yardsticks we can use.
I don't personally remember a case where "abuse" of this system entered the picture. Usually it's a case of folks knowing the endurance history of a rider who has been out there for a couple of seasons on Saturday. These riders will most often ask to be classified as an Expert because those are the riders they prefer to race with/against.
Brooks