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View Full Version : MoFo's DISQUALIFICATION!?!



Patrick
04-30-2005, 10:38 AM
Ronnie Hays' team, the MoFo's, were looking forward to this endurance season. They wanted to put together a team / bike able to finish in the top 3 for the season. They had just installed a freshly built motor and reworked the suspension on their SV and the members of the team had implemented some off season training and had it pay off; in the season opener at Cresson they placed a solid 2nd in class. The next race at TWS was looking good.
Ronnie preregistered the MoFo's for TWS with 3 riders; Cathy, Joe and himself. At that time their 4th rider had not been chosen. Closer to race date, I decided to bring one of my shop hands up to help trackside with SCRC, freeing Brandon up to ride with the MoFo's.
Saturday morning in the prerace rush of the 8 hour, Ronnie forgot to add Brandon to the roster.
Mind you, this was not an intentional oversight, or a midrace substitution, but merely something forgotten in the accelerated pace of the preparation for the 8 hour. As a result, another team reported the oversight to the CMRA, so Ronnies' team got disqualified Tuesday last week for having an unregistered rider. As a result of this oversight the team has been stripped of its first place finish and points earned.
Ronnie was not informed of this decision, he found out from one of his teammates who saw the overall standings posted on the board.
Now I want to take a minute to state this: the team acknowledges that not registering Brandon was in violation of the rules. Brandon not signing a waiver put the CMRA at risk if something would have happened to him.
I've seen much worse violations IMO, that have involved rider saftey issues that have been overlooked, or given a free pass.
I believe the decision to disqualify the team was overly harsh. Perhaps a fine, or even to remove the laps run by the non-registered rider. The decision to disqualify the team and strip all points earned, effectively ended their chance at finishing well this season and as such the decision has been made to mothball the team till next year.

Patrick

Patrick
04-30-2005, 10:38 AM
Ronnie Hays' team, the MoFo's, were looking forward to this endurance season. They wanted to put together a team / bike able to finish in the top 3 for the season. They had just installed a freshly built motor and reworked the suspension on their SV and the members of the team had implemented some off season training and had it pay off; in the season opener at Cresson they placed a solid 2nd in class. The next race at TWS was looking good.
Ronnie preregistered the MoFo's for TWS with 3 riders; Cathy, Joe and himself. At that time their 4th rider had not been chosen. Closer to race date, I decided to bring one of my shop hands up to help trackside with SCRC, freeing Brandon up to ride with the MoFo's.
Saturday morning in the prerace rush of the 8 hour, Ronnie forgot to add Brandon to the roster.
Mind you, this was not an intentional oversight, or a midrace substitution, but merely something forgotten in the accelerated pace of the preparation for the 8 hour. As a result, another team reported the oversight to the CMRA, so Ronnies' team got disqualified Tuesday last week for having an unregistered rider. As a result of this oversight the team has been stripped of its first place finish and points earned.
Ronnie was not informed of this decision, he found out from one of his teammates who saw the overall standings posted on the board.
Now I want to take a minute to state this: the team acknowledges that not registering Brandon was in violation of the rules. Brandon not signing a waiver put the CMRA at risk if something would have happened to him.
I've seen much worse violations IMO, that have involved rider saftey issues that have been overlooked, or given a free pass.
I believe the decision to disqualify the team was overly harsh. Perhaps a fine, or even to remove the laps run by the non-registered rider. The decision to disqualify the team and strip all points earned, effectively ended their chance at finishing well this season and as such the decision has been made to mothball the team till next year.

Patrick

Nancy Selleck
04-30-2005, 12:00 PM
First let me say that this situation is between Ronnie Hay (as the team owner) and Walter Walker, the Race Director. Not the club at large.

Second, Ronnie was contacted by Walter as soon as Walter had been made aware of the situation. He left messages on Ronnie's answering machine and then apparently they played phone tag for awhile. I know Ronnie spoke with at least one Board member early one morning.

Having someone ride for an endurance team without putting them on an entry form is not simply a violation of the rules, it is a serious liability issue. Whether it is intentional or not, has no bearing on the ultimate result. It is no different than a sprint rider gridding up for a sprint race without ever having filled out and signed a sprint entry form.

The difference between an endurance team without a legally entered rider and a sprint without a legally entered rider is that on an endurance team the team owner is completely and fully responsible for everything which occurs with their team. It is the team owner's responsibility to make sure that all team members are current license holders and have been entered properly for the race. A sprint rider is completely responsible for making sure that he is properly entered for a race.

If a sprint rider made it into a race without an entry, you can rest assured that he would not only be disqualified from the race, but would also surely incur a monetary fine and/or license suspension. Why should it be any different for an endurance team? What is the difference?

Patrick, there are rule violations which go on all the time, but they aren't always caught. When they are brought to the race officials, they certainly have to be dealt with so that hopefully others won't make the same mistake next time.

Nancy Selleck
04-30-2005, 12:00 PM
First let me say that this situation is between Ronnie Hay (as the team owner) and Walter Walker, the Race Director. Not the club at large.

Second, Ronnie was contacted by Walter as soon as Walter had been made aware of the situation. He left messages on Ronnie's answering machine and then apparently they played phone tag for awhile. I know Ronnie spoke with at least one Board member early one morning.

Having someone ride for an endurance team without putting them on an entry form is not simply a violation of the rules, it is a serious liability issue. Whether it is intentional or not, has no bearing on the ultimate result. It is no different than a sprint rider gridding up for a sprint race without ever having filled out and signed a sprint entry form.

The difference between an endurance team without a legally entered rider and a sprint without a legally entered rider is that on an endurance team the team owner is completely and fully responsible for everything which occurs with their team. It is the team owner's responsibility to make sure that all team members are current license holders and have been entered properly for the race. A sprint rider is completely responsible for making sure that he is properly entered for a race.

If a sprint rider made it into a race without an entry, you can rest assured that he would not only be disqualified from the race, but would also surely incur a monetary fine and/or license suspension. Why should it be any different for an endurance team? What is the difference?

Patrick, there are rule violations which go on all the time, but they aren't always caught. When they are brought to the race officials, they certainly have to be dealt with so that hopefully others won't make the same mistake next time.

Patrick
04-30-2005, 12:12 PM
Nancy,
Please don't take me the wrong way;
I'm not saying the violation didn't occur, I'm simply expressing my opinion that the resulting penalty incurred was harsh, especially in light of other violations that occur that the officials are aware of that are allowed a free pass.
If the intent is to make sure others won't make the same mistake next time, it can be accomplished just as well with a fine and a posting of such. To me a disqualification / stripping of points should be reserved as a last choice of punishment for extreme violations. My post was not meant to anger anyone, it was just a posting of my opinion.

Patrick

Patrick
04-30-2005, 12:12 PM
Nancy,
Please don't take me the wrong way;
I'm not saying the violation didn't occur, I'm simply expressing my opinion that the resulting penalty incurred was harsh, especially in light of other violations that occur that the officials are aware of that are allowed a free pass.
If the intent is to make sure others won't make the same mistake next time, it can be accomplished just as well with a fine and a posting of such. To me a disqualification / stripping of points should be reserved as a last choice of punishment for extreme violations. My post was not meant to anger anyone, it was just a posting of my opinion.

Patrick

Nancy Selleck
04-30-2005, 12:48 PM
I'm not angry...sorry if it came across that way. Just to the point, I guess.

So, in your opinion, if a sprint rider was in a sprint race without an entry, he should not be disqualified? He should keep his finish, points, award money, contingency awards, trophies, etc?

Nancy Selleck
04-30-2005, 12:48 PM
I'm not angry...sorry if it came across that way. Just to the point, I guess.

So, in your opinion, if a sprint rider was in a sprint race without an entry, he should not be disqualified? He should keep his finish, points, award money, contingency awards, trophies, etc?

Patrick
04-30-2005, 01:01 PM
I guess the difference in my opinion is that in a sprint race the person has to enter himself before he can race. In an endurance, the team captain, Ronnie, has to register his team, which he did . He simply forgot to add a rider to his already registered team on race day.

Patrick

Patrick
04-30-2005, 01:01 PM
I guess the difference in my opinion is that in a sprint race the person has to enter himself before he can race. In an endurance, the team captain, Ronnie, has to register his team, which he did . He simply forgot to add a rider to his already registered team on race day.

Patrick

Steve Breen
04-30-2005, 01:04 PM
Patrick -

After I spoke with Walter Monday (I think it was Monday, I've hit my head recently, so...) I contacted Ronnie and talked to him about it, so I'm pretty sure he knew the score before the results were posted.

I contacted Ronnie not so much as an 'CMRA official' (since this is by the numbers a Race Director call, not BoD) but rather as a friend - because I felt just terrible for Ronnie, and I know his character well enough to know he had no intent to 'cheat' with putting someone on the bike that wasn't entered.

However, the point Nancy made above regarding a sprint racer doing the same thing really drives the point home. We simply cannot afford the liability as a club of having riders who are not entered in an event out on a hot track competing.

Steve Breen
04-30-2005, 01:04 PM
Patrick -

After I spoke with Walter Monday (I think it was Monday, I've hit my head recently, so...) I contacted Ronnie and talked to him about it, so I'm pretty sure he knew the score before the results were posted.

I contacted Ronnie not so much as an 'CMRA official' (since this is by the numbers a Race Director call, not BoD) but rather as a friend - because I felt just terrible for Ronnie, and I know his character well enough to know he had no intent to 'cheat' with putting someone on the bike that wasn't entered.

However, the point Nancy made above regarding a sprint racer doing the same thing really drives the point home. We simply cannot afford the liability as a club of having riders who are not entered in an event out on a hot track competing.

Steve Breen
04-30-2005, 01:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Patrick Hart:
I guess the difference in my opinion is that in a sprint race the person has to enter himself before he can race. In an endurance, the team captain, Ronnie, has to register his team, which he did . He simply forgot to add a rider to his already registered team on race day.

Patrick </div></div>Totally hate to split hairs on this, but the "team" isn't physically out turning laps, the "racers" are. The team as an entity isn't bound to the release on the entry form, the members signing the release are.

And that difference could one day make the difference between "open" and "closed" on the front doors of the CMRA.

Steve Breen
04-30-2005, 01:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Patrick Hart:
I guess the difference in my opinion is that in a sprint race the person has to enter himself before he can race. In an endurance, the team captain, Ronnie, has to register his team, which he did . He simply forgot to add a rider to his already registered team on race day.

Patrick </div></div>Totally hate to split hairs on this, but the "team" isn't physically out turning laps, the "racers" are. The team as an entity isn't bound to the release on the entry form, the members signing the release are.

And that difference could one day make the difference between "open" and "closed" on the front doors of the CMRA.

Patrick
04-30-2005, 02:44 PM
Steve,
I completely understand the liability issues and totally agree that a mistake was made. I just think that possibly the punishment could have been different, that's all.

Patrick

Patrick
04-30-2005, 02:44 PM
Steve,
I completely understand the liability issues and totally agree that a mistake was made. I just think that possibly the punishment could have been different, that's all.

Patrick

Nancy Selleck
04-30-2005, 02:58 PM
What penalty would you suggest?

I hate to beat a dead horse, but why should the penalty be any different than for a sprint rider doing the same thing?

And if you really think about this situation, even if the team owner failed to add the rider to the team, why didn't the rider realize that he never signed a release? Surely the rider didn't think that the team owner would have signed the rider's signature on an entry form?

Nancy Selleck
04-30-2005, 02:58 PM
What penalty would you suggest?

I hate to beat a dead horse, but why should the penalty be any different than for a sprint rider doing the same thing?

And if you really think about this situation, even if the team owner failed to add the rider to the team, why didn't the rider realize that he never signed a release? Surely the rider didn't think that the team owner would have signed the rider's signature on an entry form?

Patrick
04-30-2005, 03:28 PM
Nancy,
It was a regrettable mistake, caused probably by a combination of events; the accelerated pace of the 8 hour starting at 10:00 a.m., Ronnie preregistering the team and not used to adding an extra rider, Brandon having previously ridden only one endurance race, last year, and was unaware of his responsibility. I'm not excusing them at all, nor has Ronnie or Brandon stated to me that they weren't at fault.
You asked me what penalty I would suggest: One of several penalties I suggested in my earlier posts were; a fine, or taking away the laps ridden by the unregistered rider. It's all pretty much a moot point. I posted my thoughts / opinions and were interested in ya'lls, which were given.
Thanks,
Patrick

Patrick
04-30-2005, 03:28 PM
Nancy,
It was a regrettable mistake, caused probably by a combination of events; the accelerated pace of the 8 hour starting at 10:00 a.m., Ronnie preregistering the team and not used to adding an extra rider, Brandon having previously ridden only one endurance race, last year, and was unaware of his responsibility. I'm not excusing them at all, nor has Ronnie or Brandon stated to me that they weren't at fault.
You asked me what penalty I would suggest: One of several penalties I suggested in my earlier posts were; a fine, or taking away the laps ridden by the unregistered rider. It's all pretty much a moot point. I posted my thoughts / opinions and were interested in ya'lls, which were given.
Thanks,
Patrick

Bob Cronin
05-02-2005, 12:08 PM
.02


Sprint rider violation- strip laps, add fine.
Endurance rider violation- strip laps, add fine.

The TEAM does not lose all that they worked for, only the RIDER.

Bob Cronin
05-02-2005, 12:08 PM
.02


Sprint rider violation- strip laps, add fine.
Endurance rider violation- strip laps, add fine.

The TEAM does not lose all that they worked for, only the RIDER.

Derek Delpero
05-02-2005, 12:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bob Cronin:

Sprint rider violation- strip laps, add fine.
Endurance rider violation- strip laps, add fine.

The TEAM does not lose all that they worked for, only the RIDER. </div></div>How do we asses that punishment? No offense, but are we just supposed to take the teams word that this rider rode X number of laps? I don't see that system working very well.

The missing key is that a team is the RIDER entity in an endurance race. That entity can not be split up.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Patrick Hart

[...]I'm simply expressing my opinion that the resulting penalty incurred was harsh, especially in light of other violations that occur that the officials are aware of that are allowed a free pass.
</div></div>What "other violations" were given a free pass?

Derek Delpero
05-02-2005, 12:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bob Cronin:

Sprint rider violation- strip laps, add fine.
Endurance rider violation- strip laps, add fine.

The TEAM does not lose all that they worked for, only the RIDER. </div></div>How do we asses that punishment? No offense, but are we just supposed to take the teams word that this rider rode X number of laps? I don't see that system working very well.

The missing key is that a team is the RIDER entity in an endurance race. That entity can not be split up.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Patrick Hart

[...]I'm simply expressing my opinion that the resulting penalty incurred was harsh, especially in light of other violations that occur that the officials are aware of that are allowed a free pass.
</div></div>What "other violations" were given a free pass?

Jason Keene
05-02-2005, 12:35 PM
Rules are rules...

My .02

This probably won't happen again... Now that the rules are clear and enforced.

Jason Keene
05-02-2005, 12:35 PM
Rules are rules...

My .02

This probably won't happen again... Now that the rules are clear and enforced.

Michael Hamric
05-02-2005, 02:28 PM
Brandon should be required to run a mini (not to be confused with a 125) in the big bike classes and stay up drinking beer with me Saturday night for the remainder of the year.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

MH

Michael Hamric
05-02-2005, 02:28 PM
Brandon should be required to run a mini (not to be confused with a 125) in the big bike classes and stay up drinking beer with me Saturday night for the remainder of the year.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

MH

Bob Cronin
05-02-2005, 06:34 PM
Derek-

It would be my guess, (disclaimer), that the teams that knew he was on the bike would also know what stint(s) he was riding.
Our team watches each and every team in our class and know who is on each team. Not for things like happened here in this thread but so we know who to put on the bike next. With that being said, we also know who is on their roster.

Bob Cronin
05-02-2005, 06:34 PM
Derek-

It would be my guess, (disclaimer), that the teams that knew he was on the bike would also know what stint(s) he was riding.
Our team watches each and every team in our class and know who is on each team. Not for things like happened here in this thread but so we know who to put on the bike next. With that being said, we also know who is on their roster.

David Milner
05-02-2005, 09:56 PM
If the rules are made to be broken, or circumvented, then why are they there at all.

a mistake was made, granted, and noted.

I think it would set a very loose precedent to change based on one instance.

David Milner
05-02-2005, 09:56 PM
If the rules are made to be broken, or circumvented, then why are they there at all.

a mistake was made, granted, and noted.

I think it would set a very loose precedent to change based on one instance.

Kevin
05-03-2005, 08:21 AM
Patrick, You have seen "far worse" infractions given a free pass? I would certainly like to know what these were. As a race official I will assure you that this club DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES!!!

Kevin
05-03-2005, 08:21 AM
Patrick, You have seen "far worse" infractions given a free pass? I would certainly like to know what these were. As a race official I will assure you that this club DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES!!!

Patrick
05-03-2005, 08:39 AM
Kevin,
Please don't take my words out of context, I never said, "far worse". That being said, my post was to ask some questions and provide some clarification, not to start a pissing match. The issue is resolved and the matter is dead, and even a brief amount of levity (Thanks Micheal) was achieved.

Patrick

Patrick
05-03-2005, 08:39 AM
Kevin,
Please don't take my words out of context, I never said, "far worse". That being said, my post was to ask some questions and provide some clarification, not to start a pissing match. The issue is resolved and the matter is dead, and even a brief amount of levity (Thanks Micheal) was achieved.

Patrick

Steve Breen
05-03-2005, 11:23 AM
Patrick,

Thanks for your even tone and logical approach -
It's appreciated more than you know. This particular issue has been tough all around.

Steve

Steve Breen
05-03-2005, 11:23 AM
Patrick,

Thanks for your even tone and logical approach -
It's appreciated more than you know. This particular issue has been tough all around.

Steve