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Brad Thomas
08-01-2005, 03:43 AM
Trying to get a solution to a scoring problem.
A scoring glitch costs Desert-Rats.net 2nd overall in last Saturdays 6 hour endurance race at TWS and as a result 2nd overall in the season points standings. This is a BIG DEAL! If we are to have any faith in our current scoring system this result should be corrected.

Laps 43, 64 & 112 should be pit in laps but the pit loop failed to count the lap for some reason. This resulted in two (2) laps being counted as only one (1) lap on three separate occasions.
That means we lost 3 laps because of a scoring error.
Current scoring procedures should be able to verify this by looking at the manual score sheets however the manual scorers did not record bikes when they entered the pits because they scored bikes as they crossed the finish line on the front straight.
And to show how obvious the problem is, if you look at our teams lap times you will notice that the scoring shows us running 66 laps (from lap 32 till lap 98) without pitting AT ALL. That would have required us to have over 10 gallons of fuel on the bike. So this is one lap where there is no other possibility except an electronic scoring failure.
The other two occurrences lap 64 and 112 follow similar patterns but include tire changes. It seems the same type of scoring malfunction caused all three of counting errors.

I did not become aware of this problem until the Final results were posted, and only when I got one of the Team Lap Time print outs did I discover the problem. Sometimes every team is effected by a scoring glitch and itís just corrected for all teams.

My teammates and I brought this to the attention of the CMRA timing & scoring staff member, and in turn other CMRA staff members. He acknowledged there was some sort of problem and left to discuss the issue with other staff members. Since it was a scoring glitch we hoped the results would be corrected without any formal protest. We were later told that since there was no way to verify the error with either the Electronic scoring or the Manual scoring there was nothing that could be done. This seemed to be the consensus even if we would have been able to bring it to their attention before the 30-minute protest period. Basically it was a scoring issue and there is no possible way to effectively protest this issue so I am asking the BOD what our options are? Is there some type of an appeal process or can we plead our case to the race director and get his ruling? Iím not trying to place blame, only asking what can be done to rectify this situation, so the Desert-Rats receive the appropriate amount of points for the last TWS race.

Below is the numerical proof of what this scoring failure does to the overall championship points.

What the TWS 6 hour results should have been:
1. 177 laps Northwest Honda Racing
2. 175 laps Desert-Rats.net
3. 174 laps GMAN
4. 173 laps K&Nmotorcycles.com
5. 172 laps 2wheelz.com

Which changes the overall points standings for the season:
Overall points should be:
1. 1945 Northwest Honda Racing
2. 1663 Desert-Rats.net
3. 1655 K&Nmotorcyles.com
4. 1449 Village Idiots
5. 1421 2wheelz.com

This is by know means a slam at any of the other teams, GMAN, K&N or 2wheelz.com, all three teams rode one heck of a race.

Brad Thomas
08-01-2005, 03:43 AM
Trying to get a solution to a scoring problem.
A scoring glitch costs Desert-Rats.net 2nd overall in last Saturdays 6 hour endurance race at TWS and as a result 2nd overall in the season points standings. This is a BIG DEAL! If we are to have any faith in our current scoring system this result should be corrected.

Laps 43, 64 & 112 should be pit in laps but the pit loop failed to count the lap for some reason. This resulted in two (2) laps being counted as only one (1) lap on three separate occasions.
That means we lost 3 laps because of a scoring error.
Current scoring procedures should be able to verify this by looking at the manual score sheets however the manual scorers did not record bikes when they entered the pits because they scored bikes as they crossed the finish line on the front straight.
And to show how obvious the problem is, if you look at our teams lap times you will notice that the scoring shows us running 66 laps (from lap 32 till lap 98) without pitting AT ALL. That would have required us to have over 10 gallons of fuel on the bike. So this is one lap where there is no other possibility except an electronic scoring failure.
The other two occurrences lap 64 and 112 follow similar patterns but include tire changes. It seems the same type of scoring malfunction caused all three of counting errors.

I did not become aware of this problem until the Final results were posted, and only when I got one of the Team Lap Time print outs did I discover the problem. Sometimes every team is effected by a scoring glitch and itís just corrected for all teams.

My teammates and I brought this to the attention of the CMRA timing & scoring staff member, and in turn other CMRA staff members. He acknowledged there was some sort of problem and left to discuss the issue with other staff members. Since it was a scoring glitch we hoped the results would be corrected without any formal protest. We were later told that since there was no way to verify the error with either the Electronic scoring or the Manual scoring there was nothing that could be done. This seemed to be the consensus even if we would have been able to bring it to their attention before the 30-minute protest period. Basically it was a scoring issue and there is no possible way to effectively protest this issue so I am asking the BOD what our options are? Is there some type of an appeal process or can we plead our case to the race director and get his ruling? Iím not trying to place blame, only asking what can be done to rectify this situation, so the Desert-Rats receive the appropriate amount of points for the last TWS race.

Below is the numerical proof of what this scoring failure does to the overall championship points.

What the TWS 6 hour results should have been:
1. 177 laps Northwest Honda Racing
2. 175 laps Desert-Rats.net
3. 174 laps GMAN
4. 173 laps K&Nmotorcycles.com
5. 172 laps 2wheelz.com

Which changes the overall points standings for the season:
Overall points should be:
1. 1945 Northwest Honda Racing
2. 1663 Desert-Rats.net
3. 1655 K&Nmotorcyles.com
4. 1449 Village Idiots
5. 1421 2wheelz.com

This is by know means a slam at any of the other teams, GMAN, K&N or 2wheelz.com, all three teams rode one heck of a race.

Steve Breen
08-01-2005, 10:36 AM
We'll look into this sir.

Steve Breen
08-01-2005, 10:36 AM
We'll look into this sir.

Steve Guynes
08-01-2005, 12:54 PM
What happened to Breeno's response topic?
Subject: Desert Rats Scoring Issue
Link: http://www.frenzy.com/UBB/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000241;p=1#0000 01
Thanks,
Steve Guynes

Steve Guynes
08-01-2005, 12:54 PM
What happened to Breeno's response topic?
Subject: Desert Rats Scoring Issue
Link: http://www.frenzy.com/UBB/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000241;p=1#0000 01
Thanks,
Steve Guynes

Steve Breen
08-01-2005, 02:21 PM
Steve -- that was actually a post to the BoD page requesting other BoD member's input into the topic.

I made a mistake and posted that here instead of to the proper forum.

Sorry for the drama there...

Steve Breen
08-01-2005, 02:21 PM
Steve -- that was actually a post to the BoD page requesting other BoD member's input into the topic.

I made a mistake and posted that here instead of to the proper forum.

Sorry for the drama there...

Steve Guynes
08-01-2005, 03:48 PM
Its a conspiracy....LOL!! Thanks, Breeno!

Later,
Stevo

Steve Guynes
08-01-2005, 03:48 PM
Its a conspiracy....LOL!! Thanks, Breeno!

Later,
Stevo

Todd Gyure
08-02-2005, 11:14 AM
This MUST be corrected, lets get it done. It is the RIGHT/ONLY thing to do!

Todd Gyure
08-02-2005, 11:14 AM
This MUST be corrected, lets get it done. It is the RIGHT/ONLY thing to do!

Ronnie Lunsford
08-02-2005, 11:27 AM
If this is correct it seems easy enough to use the manual score sheets for all teams to verify,
as all of their laps for pit stops were missed.

I'm sure Derek will be able to explain and/or
correct this issue.

And why I'm here, thanks to all of the CMRA officials and workers who make the CMRA the best place to race !!!!!!!!

Ronnie Lunsford
08-02-2005, 11:27 AM
If this is correct it seems easy enough to use the manual score sheets for all teams to verify,
as all of their laps for pit stops were missed.

I'm sure Derek will be able to explain and/or
correct this issue.

And why I'm here, thanks to all of the CMRA officials and workers who make the CMRA the best place to race !!!!!!!!

08-02-2005, 12:22 PM
Uhhhh....they cannot manually score you if they are facing the track and there are no windows that face out the other side of the trailer. This appears to be a one off incident.

-Greg

08-02-2005, 12:22 PM
Uhhhh....they cannot manually score you if they are facing the track and there are no windows that face out the other side of the trailer. This appears to be a one off incident.

-Greg

Ronnie Lunsford
08-02-2005, 12:38 PM
My point is the manual scoring should have missed everyone's pit stops, so they should be
able to verify the mistake.

Ronnie Lunsford
08-02-2005, 12:38 PM
My point is the manual scoring should have missed everyone's pit stops, so they should be
able to verify the mistake.

mark niemi
08-02-2005, 12:40 PM
No big deal from our team, Brad.
Let's evaluate it,adjust the points if we need to (or not) and move along to Hallett.
Maybe the boys from Houston will forget how to get there.

mark niemi
08-02-2005, 12:40 PM
No big deal from our team, Brad.
Let's evaluate it,adjust the points if we need to (or not) and move along to Hallett.
Maybe the boys from Houston will forget how to get there.

JesseJohnson
08-02-2005, 02:50 PM
Brad/Steve:

We need the team owner to submit this in writing to the CMRA office (if you haven't already done so).

Much discussion right now, stay tuned.

Jess

JesseJohnson
08-02-2005, 02:50 PM
Brad/Steve:

We need the team owner to submit this in writing to the CMRA office (if you haven't already done so).

Much discussion right now, stay tuned.

Jess

Keith Hertell
08-03-2005, 10:57 AM
While we're at it... for some reason Team Anvil didn't get any laps for the last 20 minutes of the race. I wonder why...... :rolleyes:

Keith Hertell
08-03-2005, 10:57 AM
While we're at it... for some reason Team Anvil didn't get any laps for the last 20 minutes of the race. I wonder why...... :rolleyes:

Bob Cronin
08-03-2005, 12:23 PM
The scorers could see you through the back of the trailer Keith. Can't you read?!!
Geez!

Bob Cronin
08-03-2005, 12:23 PM
The scorers could see you through the back of the trailer Keith. Can't you read?!!
Geez!

Todd Gyure
08-04-2005, 09:47 PM
Keith,

I may be wrong, but does scoring stop when one's bike goes end over end? :p (I know it does when one's connecting rod bearing says goodnight). /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Todd Gyure
08-04-2005, 09:47 PM
Keith,

I may be wrong, but does scoring stop when one's bike goes end over end? :p (I know it does when one's connecting rod bearing says goodnight). /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Steve Breen
08-05-2005, 03:18 PM
The BoD has reviewed the facts and circumstances associated with this incident and have voted to credit the Desert Rats with the three laps that were missed due to technical issues with the TWS scoring loop.

We have put in place procedures that will cover this contingency for the next TWS event.

Thanks for the effort of both BoD, staff and racers alike for their sportsmanlike demeanor in working through this situation.

Revised results will be posted around next Monday.

Steve Breen
08-05-2005, 03:18 PM
The BoD has reviewed the facts and circumstances associated with this incident and have voted to credit the Desert Rats with the three laps that were missed due to technical issues with the TWS scoring loop.

We have put in place procedures that will cover this contingency for the next TWS event.

Thanks for the effort of both BoD, staff and racers alike for their sportsmanlike demeanor in working through this situation.

Revised results will be posted around next Monday.

Kevin
08-11-2005, 04:32 PM
At the risk of sounding stupid, if you want to be sure your scoring is always correct, keep a scoring sheet of your teams race, every lap, every pit-in pit-out and every red flag. It is a major pain in the butt and requires some one with a set of those stone age timing devices-stop watches. If done correctly you can then add all of times and come up with the total race time. This gives you a accurate document that is of great help in scoring protests. It works, I have done it several times.

Kevin
08-11-2005, 04:32 PM
At the risk of sounding stupid, if you want to be sure your scoring is always correct, keep a scoring sheet of your teams race, every lap, every pit-in pit-out and every red flag. It is a major pain in the butt and requires some one with a set of those stone age timing devices-stop watches. If done correctly you can then add all of times and come up with the total race time. This gives you a accurate document that is of great help in scoring protests. It works, I have done it several times.

Bob Cronin
08-12-2005, 11:40 AM
We already do that on our team.
We also watch all the other teams in our class. Well, as far as how many stops they have made anyway.

Bob Cronin
08-12-2005, 11:40 AM
We already do that on our team.
We also watch all the other teams in our class. Well, as far as how many stops they have made anyway.