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10-09-2005, 03:21 PM
There are two rules that I feel need to be discussed for the upcoming season. These rules have effected many racers and I can't understand why they should?

1. If a racer does not have a transponder on during the race for any reason they are DQ'd. We pay for people to manually score at every event and we also pay to have numbers and background on our bikes. Why can't we utilize these people in certain situations? Being Dq'd could cost someone a championship or maybe even contingency money. In the event that a racer forgets their transponder, we should go to manual scoring and possibly fine the racer for the inconvienence. The fine will keep people from making a habit out of forgeting but also allow someone to be scored.

2. The protest process is confusing and needs to be revised. I reported a problem at TWS and before I could even get word back from a CMRA official 30 minutes was up and I was told it was too late. I came in to report my problem and ask questions immediately and I still was not given an opportunity. I understand that race weekends are busy, this is why the racers should be allowed more than 30 minutes. Once a racer reports the protest with an official within the 30 minutes, there should be no time limit to resolve the issue. In my case it took more than 30 minutes to just get some help. This has effected many racers and I think we need to take a look at it. Once again, I understand how busy the CMRA staff is on a race weekend, this is exactly why we need more time as racers to get information and be able to make a decision on a protest.


The CMRA staff does a great job, this is only a suggestion to help make things better for everyone.

Thanks

10-09-2005, 03:21 PM
There are two rules that I feel need to be discussed for the upcoming season. These rules have effected many racers and I can't understand why they should?

1. If a racer does not have a transponder on during the race for any reason they are DQ'd. We pay for people to manually score at every event and we also pay to have numbers and background on our bikes. Why can't we utilize these people in certain situations? Being Dq'd could cost someone a championship or maybe even contingency money. In the event that a racer forgets their transponder, we should go to manual scoring and possibly fine the racer for the inconvienence. The fine will keep people from making a habit out of forgeting but also allow someone to be scored.

2. The protest process is confusing and needs to be revised. I reported a problem at TWS and before I could even get word back from a CMRA official 30 minutes was up and I was told it was too late. I came in to report my problem and ask questions immediately and I still was not given an opportunity. I understand that race weekends are busy, this is why the racers should be allowed more than 30 minutes. Once a racer reports the protest with an official within the 30 minutes, there should be no time limit to resolve the issue. In my case it took more than 30 minutes to just get some help. This has effected many racers and I think we need to take a look at it. Once again, I understand how busy the CMRA staff is on a race weekend, this is exactly why we need more time as racers to get information and be able to make a decision on a protest.


The CMRA staff does a great job, this is only a suggestion to help make things better for everyone.

Thanks

David Milner
10-09-2005, 05:43 PM
Good points, I had the same thought on the first one but a good counter was made to it.

You remember your helmet, back protector and even to put gas in your tank. Your transponder is part of your race prep just as anything else is. It's not the responsibility of the staff to score you just because forgot your transponder. They might as well check to see if you've got gas in the bike. Although, if it were changed, I think the fine would be a good deterrent.

On the second. What would be the possibility of protests being filed with Registration (Alan's going to shoot me for this) and they can time stamp it and it can be reviewed at the end of the day when there is more time? It would ensure that the protest if filed in the time limit but would ensure that it has time to be reviewed properly.

Just thoughts,

David

David Milner
10-09-2005, 05:43 PM
Good points, I had the same thought on the first one but a good counter was made to it.

You remember your helmet, back protector and even to put gas in your tank. Your transponder is part of your race prep just as anything else is. It's not the responsibility of the staff to score you just because forgot your transponder. They might as well check to see if you've got gas in the bike. Although, if it were changed, I think the fine would be a good deterrent.

On the second. What would be the possibility of protests being filed with Registration (Alan's going to shoot me for this) and they can time stamp it and it can be reviewed at the end of the day when there is more time? It would ensure that the protest if filed in the time limit but would ensure that it has time to be reviewed properly.

Just thoughts,

David

10-09-2005, 08:12 PM
I agree David that the transponder is part of your gear, however, if you do not have enough gas, you just run out. You will still get some points and that is better than nothing. Also, we don't have back up helmets, back protectors and gas tanks, but what we do have is numbers on big white and yellow plates that let people score us manually. We are paying for them to be there, let's use them! I do think the racer should be fined to keep things under control, at least $25.00?

I like the protest idea and I am sure Alan would be more than happy to assist any racer with this kind of problem. He has always tried to help me and I think he does a great job!!

Thanks for your thoughts David and I hope we all take a look at the current format to see if we can improve on it.

10-09-2005, 08:12 PM
I agree David that the transponder is part of your gear, however, if you do not have enough gas, you just run out. You will still get some points and that is better than nothing. Also, we don't have back up helmets, back protectors and gas tanks, but what we do have is numbers on big white and yellow plates that let people score us manually. We are paying for them to be there, let's use them! I do think the racer should be fined to keep things under control, at least $25.00?

I like the protest idea and I am sure Alan would be more than happy to assist any racer with this kind of problem. He has always tried to help me and I think he does a great job!!

Thanks for your thoughts David and I hope we all take a look at the current format to see if we can improve on it.

David Milner
10-09-2005, 08:28 PM
Randall,

I agree, but as pointed out in earlier threads, the manual scorers are there if there is a problem with electronic scoring not picking up a transponder that is on a bike. I know that several times during the races while corner working we were asked to confirm that there was a transponder on a bike.

and if those big numbers on white or yellow backgrounds weren't there, we wouldn't know which bike to look for. Also, the grid marshall wouldn't know if you were in the right spot. So they do have some use anyway.

And as far as a fine, I would recommend twice the entry fee for the race. if you're going to buy points by not having a transponder, make it more of a thought the next time.

I've worked 4 of the last 5 CMRA days, and in the 3 race days I worked, there was always conversation between manual and electronic scoring to make sure they were on the same page. So they're not just sitting around with nothing to do. (and yes, I know you know this).

Like I said, good points, and I look forward to seeing what the BOD rules on the issue.

and on a side note, you looked damn good, can't wait to see you run again next year.

David

David Milner
10-09-2005, 08:28 PM
Randall,

I agree, but as pointed out in earlier threads, the manual scorers are there if there is a problem with electronic scoring not picking up a transponder that is on a bike. I know that several times during the races while corner working we were asked to confirm that there was a transponder on a bike.

and if those big numbers on white or yellow backgrounds weren't there, we wouldn't know which bike to look for. Also, the grid marshall wouldn't know if you were in the right spot. So they do have some use anyway.

And as far as a fine, I would recommend twice the entry fee for the race. if you're going to buy points by not having a transponder, make it more of a thought the next time.

I've worked 4 of the last 5 CMRA days, and in the 3 race days I worked, there was always conversation between manual and electronic scoring to make sure they were on the same page. So they're not just sitting around with nothing to do. (and yes, I know you know this).

Like I said, good points, and I look forward to seeing what the BOD rules on the issue.

and on a side note, you looked damn good, can't wait to see you run again next year.

David

10-09-2005, 09:53 PM
Thanks David!!

In my case someone actually removed my transponder from my bike without me knowing. I am aware of the other uses for the numbers, as you pointed out, but if they are scoring us manually no matter what, just in case something happens, why don't we use that info in a helpful way? How often do we lose power? Probably about as much as someone forgets their transponder?

I agree we need enough of a fine to keep racers from getting amnesia /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Any options for the racers would be better than a DQ.

I appreciate the feedback!!

10-09-2005, 09:53 PM
Thanks David!!

In my case someone actually removed my transponder from my bike without me knowing. I am aware of the other uses for the numbers, as you pointed out, but if they are scoring us manually no matter what, just in case something happens, why don't we use that info in a helpful way? How often do we lose power? Probably about as much as someone forgets their transponder?

I agree we need enough of a fine to keep racers from getting amnesia /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Any options for the racers would be better than a DQ.

I appreciate the feedback!!

David Milner
10-09-2005, 10:24 PM
Then how about this option?

if you are confirmed gridded at the start, and manual can score you afterward, then you get one lap minimum, with a fine of $25 and if you finish, you get fined 2x the entry fee and you get your points?

if, in the case you say where someone removed your transponder, then can we not put that under the rules of protest and fine the individual, or potentially ban said individual from racing (if, of course, they are a registered plate)so that this instance doesn't happen again?

working here, let's go further

David

David Milner
10-09-2005, 10:24 PM
Then how about this option?

if you are confirmed gridded at the start, and manual can score you afterward, then you get one lap minimum, with a fine of $25 and if you finish, you get fined 2x the entry fee and you get your points?

if, in the case you say where someone removed your transponder, then can we not put that under the rules of protest and fine the individual, or potentially ban said individual from racing (if, of course, they are a registered plate)so that this instance doesn't happen again?

working here, let's go further

David

Walter Walker
10-10-2005, 12:51 AM
Let me clear a few things up here.

First, a protest is not filed until it is on paper. Just telling an offical or asking a question does not constitute an offical protest.

Second, to file a protest you should go to REGISTRATION and fill out a protest form. There is someone in REGISTRATION all day. I point this out at almost every riders meeting.

Ok, Transponders. We've gone over this at least a hundred times. You will not be scored if you forget your transponder or you did not charge your transponder(and we can tell if you didn't charge it). Also if you lose your transponder because it was not mounted securely you will not be scored. If for some other reason the scoring system misses you we will look at it on a case by case basis.

These rules an procedures are fairly universal in most forms of motor racing beacause they work. "IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!!!"

Walter Walker
10-10-2005, 12:51 AM
Let me clear a few things up here.

First, a protest is not filed until it is on paper. Just telling an offical or asking a question does not constitute an offical protest.

Second, to file a protest you should go to REGISTRATION and fill out a protest form. There is someone in REGISTRATION all day. I point this out at almost every riders meeting.

Ok, Transponders. We've gone over this at least a hundred times. You will not be scored if you forget your transponder or you did not charge your transponder(and we can tell if you didn't charge it). Also if you lose your transponder because it was not mounted securely you will not be scored. If for some other reason the scoring system misses you we will look at it on a case by case basis.

These rules an procedures are fairly universal in most forms of motor racing beacause they work. "IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!!!"

wsb742
10-10-2005, 09:25 AM
Related question on transponders.
I sprint two bikes, and have only one transponder. I may choose to get a second transponder to make sure I don't forget to move it from one machine to the other.

How do I register the second transponder and indicate which race will have which transponder?
What if I switch to the superstock-legal bike for a race when I'd normally run the superbike due to a mechanical and then have the other transponder?

Scott

wsb742
10-10-2005, 09:25 AM
Related question on transponders.
I sprint two bikes, and have only one transponder. I may choose to get a second transponder to make sure I don't forget to move it from one machine to the other.

How do I register the second transponder and indicate which race will have which transponder?
What if I switch to the superstock-legal bike for a race when I'd normally run the superbike due to a mechanical and then have the other transponder?

Scott

10-10-2005, 10:04 AM
Walter,

I think we all know how it is supposed to work, it just isn't that easy!!

I have heard of other clubs giving the racer a fine for not having a transponder, it seems logical. If we are in this together, then why not try and make it better? You have gone over the transponder issue a hundred times because people are not happy with it. If we can help out the racer by simply looking at manual scoring, why is it such a problem?

Ther is definitely confusion among everyone in a protest situation, including staff, this 30 minute rule should be looked at for the future. These areas may not be "broken" but they do need a little help.

Transponders are not equipment that we wear , so it is possible to forget it if you are rushing out to race. We all try and remember our transponders, but every now and then someone does forget. We spend a considerable amount of money to race and it is a shame that something like that could cost a championship or money for a racer. At TWS I was never told that my transponder was not working, even after a red flag and a long delay before the restart.


The CMRA is the best club around and the staff does an excellent job. We have to work together to make things better for the staff and the racers. These are two areas that I personally feel can be improved.

10-10-2005, 10:04 AM
Walter,

I think we all know how it is supposed to work, it just isn't that easy!!

I have heard of other clubs giving the racer a fine for not having a transponder, it seems logical. If we are in this together, then why not try and make it better? You have gone over the transponder issue a hundred times because people are not happy with it. If we can help out the racer by simply looking at manual scoring, why is it such a problem?

Ther is definitely confusion among everyone in a protest situation, including staff, this 30 minute rule should be looked at for the future. These areas may not be "broken" but they do need a little help.

Transponders are not equipment that we wear , so it is possible to forget it if you are rushing out to race. We all try and remember our transponders, but every now and then someone does forget. We spend a considerable amount of money to race and it is a shame that something like that could cost a championship or money for a racer. At TWS I was never told that my transponder was not working, even after a red flag and a long delay before the restart.


The CMRA is the best club around and the staff does an excellent job. We have to work together to make things better for the staff and the racers. These are two areas that I personally feel can be improved.

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 10:11 AM
We have at least one other rider who has two different bikes and they each have their own transponder.

The answer is simple, fill out a separate entry form for each bike listing the correct transponder for that bike.

Regardless of the scenario, if you need to change transponders after you have done your entry, you can fill out a change form in Registration.

This past year, we only had change forms for endurance, but we will have a change form for sprints next year.

To further explain what Walter said, if the transponder problem is the rider's fault (not charged, forgotten, not secured properly, not turned on, etc.) the rider will not be scored. If the transponder problem is not the rider's fault (scoring loop problem, crash resulting in the transponder falling off, etc.) the rider will be scored. We take great care to determine why the transponder is not being picked up, but bottom line is that it's the rider's responsibility to make sure it's on there and working properly. Why should we have to chase around after folks to make sure they are prepared to race?

The 30-minute protest period is standard for road racing. After your race, you check your results or ask someone else to check them for you if you can't get by there. You have 30-minutes from the time they are posted to file a protest. Registration is where you go to fill out a protest form within that 30-minute time period. Just like a refund request for entries, the staff in Registration doesn't ask questions regarding your protest, they just provide you with the form and then they notify the appropriate official (usually Walter) who takes a look at the protest when he has a minute to review it. It's not complicated, the procedure is simple. Fill out the protest form within the 30 minutes, give it to the folks in Registration and then go on about the rest of your day. Results will not be final until the protest is settled.

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 10:11 AM
We have at least one other rider who has two different bikes and they each have their own transponder.

The answer is simple, fill out a separate entry form for each bike listing the correct transponder for that bike.

Regardless of the scenario, if you need to change transponders after you have done your entry, you can fill out a change form in Registration.

This past year, we only had change forms for endurance, but we will have a change form for sprints next year.

To further explain what Walter said, if the transponder problem is the rider's fault (not charged, forgotten, not secured properly, not turned on, etc.) the rider will not be scored. If the transponder problem is not the rider's fault (scoring loop problem, crash resulting in the transponder falling off, etc.) the rider will be scored. We take great care to determine why the transponder is not being picked up, but bottom line is that it's the rider's responsibility to make sure it's on there and working properly. Why should we have to chase around after folks to make sure they are prepared to race?

The 30-minute protest period is standard for road racing. After your race, you check your results or ask someone else to check them for you if you can't get by there. You have 30-minutes from the time they are posted to file a protest. Registration is where you go to fill out a protest form within that 30-minute time period. Just like a refund request for entries, the staff in Registration doesn't ask questions regarding your protest, they just provide you with the form and then they notify the appropriate official (usually Walter) who takes a look at the protest when he has a minute to review it. It's not complicated, the procedure is simple. Fill out the protest form within the 30 minutes, give it to the folks in Registration and then go on about the rest of your day. Results will not be final until the protest is settled.

burner42
10-10-2005, 01:38 PM
I am not trying to cause any problems or throw fuel on the fire, I have resolved this problem with Walter & Nancey, I just wanted to explain my transponder scoring story for the sake of discussion...
I know my scoring problem at MSR in June was caused from lack of communication and the fact that I had back to back races and major time constraints (I raced 5 classes all within 1-2 races between each class)and by the time I got to a point where I could actually file a protest it was officially "too late". I did not forget my transponder or fail to charge/secure it, I was run off the track avoiding a highsiding rider and missed the loop. I assumed I was still scored, since I entered the track about fifty yards down the track and did not wreck. I raced my second race then went to the scoring tower and checked my points, I found out I had been miss scored, talked to Kevin Dennis and was told thirty minutes had passed its too late and I need to talk to Walter or Nancey, looked for Walter, could not find him (should have done a wheelie on my pitbike, he'd a been there then hahaha). Then I had to hurry back to the pits for another race. By then it was way too late. Long story short, I lost valuable points to Ronnie Hay and Cory Burleson in the C Superstock class that I was currently in a close third overall behind Ronnie (finished 3rd that weekend, got scored for 25th). As I have told Nancy and Walter, I have put this behind me, my season turned out great, but I still believe there has to be a better way, we as racers are just as serious about our racing as you the CMRA is with putting on a great event month in and month out, when you are racing 4-6 classes in one afternoon you dont have much time for distractions, I barely had time to check my results much less find a CMRA official, explain the situation, be told to talk to someone else, find that person explain, then have to rush off to race another race, it was very frustrating. I think we can find a better solution...
Thanks,
Myles

burner42
10-10-2005, 01:38 PM
I am not trying to cause any problems or throw fuel on the fire, I have resolved this problem with Walter & Nancey, I just wanted to explain my transponder scoring story for the sake of discussion...
I know my scoring problem at MSR in June was caused from lack of communication and the fact that I had back to back races and major time constraints (I raced 5 classes all within 1-2 races between each class)and by the time I got to a point where I could actually file a protest it was officially "too late". I did not forget my transponder or fail to charge/secure it, I was run off the track avoiding a highsiding rider and missed the loop. I assumed I was still scored, since I entered the track about fifty yards down the track and did not wreck. I raced my second race then went to the scoring tower and checked my points, I found out I had been miss scored, talked to Kevin Dennis and was told thirty minutes had passed its too late and I need to talk to Walter or Nancey, looked for Walter, could not find him (should have done a wheelie on my pitbike, he'd a been there then hahaha). Then I had to hurry back to the pits for another race. By then it was way too late. Long story short, I lost valuable points to Ronnie Hay and Cory Burleson in the C Superstock class that I was currently in a close third overall behind Ronnie (finished 3rd that weekend, got scored for 25th). As I have told Nancy and Walter, I have put this behind me, my season turned out great, but I still believe there has to be a better way, we as racers are just as serious about our racing as you the CMRA is with putting on a great event month in and month out, when you are racing 4-6 classes in one afternoon you dont have much time for distractions, I barely had time to check my results much less find a CMRA official, explain the situation, be told to talk to someone else, find that person explain, then have to rush off to race another race, it was very frustrating. I think we can find a better solution...
Thanks,
Myles

10-10-2005, 01:44 PM
Sounds good in theory, but that is not what happens Nancy. I was told that something could not be protested and then told it could be? Confusion?

Concerning the transponders, I am not asking for you or anyone else to check or follow us around to make sure we have a transponder. I am simply asking for another option besides a disqualification! I am sure that you and everyone else on this board has locked their keys in the car, you didn't mean to do it but it still happened. With manual scoring, it's like having someone with a spare set of keys to let you in /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

The transponder issue doesn't happen that often, instead of punishing the racer for their oversight or in my case bad luck, why not have a back up plan since we have the info at our disposal?

I still have not heard an argument for why it is such a problem? Why punish the racer for accidentally forgetting a transponder? It is the only piece of equipment or gear that is not essential for safety, people raced for years without them. It is also the only piece of equipment that we have a back up for. The CMRA does not have backup helmets, leathers, or boots but they do have manual scoring that can help a racer out if needed!

Just thoughts!

10-10-2005, 01:44 PM
Sounds good in theory, but that is not what happens Nancy. I was told that something could not be protested and then told it could be? Confusion?

Concerning the transponders, I am not asking for you or anyone else to check or follow us around to make sure we have a transponder. I am simply asking for another option besides a disqualification! I am sure that you and everyone else on this board has locked their keys in the car, you didn't mean to do it but it still happened. With manual scoring, it's like having someone with a spare set of keys to let you in /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

The transponder issue doesn't happen that often, instead of punishing the racer for their oversight or in my case bad luck, why not have a back up plan since we have the info at our disposal?

I still have not heard an argument for why it is such a problem? Why punish the racer for accidentally forgetting a transponder? It is the only piece of equipment or gear that is not essential for safety, people raced for years without them. It is also the only piece of equipment that we have a back up for. The CMRA does not have backup helmets, leathers, or boots but they do have manual scoring that can help a racer out if needed!

Just thoughts!

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 03:25 PM
Randall, who was it that told you that you could not fill out a protest form and then who told you that you could? Ever since the protest confusion that occured with Myles at MSR in June, we have explained to our race day staff the procedure for filing protests. They are supposed to direct all questions/protests directly to Registration. And of course, as Walter posted above, he mentions protest procedures to the riders at every riders meeting.

And if 30 minutes isn't enough, then how much time is enough time? 45 minutes? 1 hour? If an hour's enough then at 6:30 on Sunday night after 80% of the paddock has packed up and left the scoring staff would have to sit there for another hour waiting to see if anyone is planning on protesting the last race of the day?

As far as the transponder issue goes, manual scoring backup is not 100%. While we have great manual scorers, there is no way that they can get every bike, every lap, every race all day long. With the size of the grids and the speeds that the bikes are going, it is virutally impossible.

And if there are no negative consequences for the rider who forgets or doesn't charge his transponder, then how do we get him to remember to do it? What about the other 150 riders who do remember their transponder? Do we give them a reward for following the rules and just let those who don't follow the rules and create extra work get off without any consequence? After two years of using transponders, we're still having to spend way too much time on this subject.

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 03:25 PM
Randall, who was it that told you that you could not fill out a protest form and then who told you that you could? Ever since the protest confusion that occured with Myles at MSR in June, we have explained to our race day staff the procedure for filing protests. They are supposed to direct all questions/protests directly to Registration. And of course, as Walter posted above, he mentions protest procedures to the riders at every riders meeting.

And if 30 minutes isn't enough, then how much time is enough time? 45 minutes? 1 hour? If an hour's enough then at 6:30 on Sunday night after 80% of the paddock has packed up and left the scoring staff would have to sit there for another hour waiting to see if anyone is planning on protesting the last race of the day?

As far as the transponder issue goes, manual scoring backup is not 100%. While we have great manual scorers, there is no way that they can get every bike, every lap, every race all day long. With the size of the grids and the speeds that the bikes are going, it is virutally impossible.

And if there are no negative consequences for the rider who forgets or doesn't charge his transponder, then how do we get him to remember to do it? What about the other 150 riders who do remember their transponder? Do we give them a reward for following the rules and just let those who don't follow the rules and create extra work get off without any consequence? After two years of using transponders, we're still having to spend way too much time on this subject.

Walter Walker
10-10-2005, 03:51 PM
Ok heres a few.
(1) The more manual data we use the less acurate the results become.
(2) One of the main reasons we went full electronic is the size of our grids. Come out and sit with my wife and try to score a sixty bike sprint race or a 300+ lap endurance race. Don't get me wrong, the manual scores are good but they are not perfect.
(3) We have results posted no later than 10 min after each race. If we have to go to the manual data its more like 25 min. That slows down the whole day.
(4) Manual scoring invites more protests.
(5) If the other 50 or so riders in a given race can manage to make it out to the grid with their transponder. It dosen't seem fair to score you if you forgot yours fine or not.
(6) Since a scoring protest would have to be filed if you forget your transponder. Those of you that don't know how to file a protest would be in trouble.
(7) The AMA, CCS, and WERA all have the same rules about transponders.

I think it comes down to a person not wanting to take responsibility for something they did or in this case didn't do. Think of it like this, if you don't pay your electric bill your electricty gets turned off.

Walter Walker
10-10-2005, 03:51 PM
Ok heres a few.
(1) The more manual data we use the less acurate the results become.
(2) One of the main reasons we went full electronic is the size of our grids. Come out and sit with my wife and try to score a sixty bike sprint race or a 300+ lap endurance race. Don't get me wrong, the manual scores are good but they are not perfect.
(3) We have results posted no later than 10 min after each race. If we have to go to the manual data its more like 25 min. That slows down the whole day.
(4) Manual scoring invites more protests.
(5) If the other 50 or so riders in a given race can manage to make it out to the grid with their transponder. It dosen't seem fair to score you if you forgot yours fine or not.
(6) Since a scoring protest would have to be filed if you forget your transponder. Those of you that don't know how to file a protest would be in trouble.
(7) The AMA, CCS, and WERA all have the same rules about transponders.

I think it comes down to a person not wanting to take responsibility for something they did or in this case didn't do. Think of it like this, if you don't pay your electric bill your electricty gets turned off.

Brandon Spradling
10-10-2005, 04:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nancy Selleck:


And if there are no negative consequences for the rider who forgets or doesn't charge his transponder, then how do we get him to remember to do it? What about the other 150 riders who do remember their transponder? Do we give them a reward for following the rules and just let those who don't follow the rules and create extra work get off without any consequence? After two years of using transponders, we're still having to spend way too much time on this subject. </div></div>a fine would be a "negative consequence." double the entry fee or whatever, still a whole lot better than a DQ. i'm not taking anything away from the hard work that you, nancy and walter and everyone else puts in. i just think randall has a good point in that it's not "broken" but it could use some improvements. even if the manual scores dont get every lap for every bike i'm sure getting scored for 1 or 3 or however many laps they did get scored for, would be acceptable without question or complaint from every racer, rather than just giveing them a big fat 0 for a mistake. points and contingency are what this whole thing boils down too for a lot of us, it juse seems severe to be DQ'ed for such a small and very easy mistake to be made on race day.

Brandon Spradling
10-10-2005, 04:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nancy Selleck:


And if there are no negative consequences for the rider who forgets or doesn't charge his transponder, then how do we get him to remember to do it? What about the other 150 riders who do remember their transponder? Do we give them a reward for following the rules and just let those who don't follow the rules and create extra work get off without any consequence? After two years of using transponders, we're still having to spend way too much time on this subject. </div></div>a fine would be a "negative consequence." double the entry fee or whatever, still a whole lot better than a DQ. i'm not taking anything away from the hard work that you, nancy and walter and everyone else puts in. i just think randall has a good point in that it's not "broken" but it could use some improvements. even if the manual scores dont get every lap for every bike i'm sure getting scored for 1 or 3 or however many laps they did get scored for, would be acceptable without question or complaint from every racer, rather than just giveing them a big fat 0 for a mistake. points and contingency are what this whole thing boils down too for a lot of us, it juse seems severe to be DQ'ed for such a small and very easy mistake to be made on race day.

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 04:36 PM
The whole point here is that we don't have time to jump through a bunch of hoops because one person doesn't follow the rules. Verifying the manual score sheets and then inserting those results into the electronic scoring results requires extra work. And I'm sure you realize that as soon as one race ends, another begins. We're not sitting around with extra time on our hands to fix results all day.

If points and contingency are so important, then make it a point to be prepared to race. Put a piece of duct tape on your tank reminding you to check your gas, check your grid position, check you transponder.

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 04:36 PM
The whole point here is that we don't have time to jump through a bunch of hoops because one person doesn't follow the rules. Verifying the manual score sheets and then inserting those results into the electronic scoring results requires extra work. And I'm sure you realize that as soon as one race ends, another begins. We're not sitting around with extra time on our hands to fix results all day.

If points and contingency are so important, then make it a point to be prepared to race. Put a piece of duct tape on your tank reminding you to check your gas, check your grid position, check you transponder.

Brandon Spradling
10-10-2005, 06:12 PM
i dont think it is matter of someone trying to break the "rules", just the events of a busy day for a lot of us and some of us make the MISTAKE of forgetting things. no matter how many steps you take to prevent mistakes at the race track mistakes still happen. i personally havent had this happen to me, but i do have a lot of help in my pits.

on an average if i may ask, how many riders on suday do forget their transponders. i was figuring maybe 2 or 3 per event.

now as far as posting results. i know that contingency, isn't given out at the track, so from a results aspect. would it not be possible to take time after the event in the oncoming days to get things straight with manual scoring and work out all of the kinks from the weekend. i am not trying to work anyone harder, like i said before you guys go over and above to make this great for us racers.

thanks nancy

Brandon Spradling
10-10-2005, 06:12 PM
i dont think it is matter of someone trying to break the "rules", just the events of a busy day for a lot of us and some of us make the MISTAKE of forgetting things. no matter how many steps you take to prevent mistakes at the race track mistakes still happen. i personally havent had this happen to me, but i do have a lot of help in my pits.

on an average if i may ask, how many riders on suday do forget their transponders. i was figuring maybe 2 or 3 per event.

now as far as posting results. i know that contingency, isn't given out at the track, so from a results aspect. would it not be possible to take time after the event in the oncoming days to get things straight with manual scoring and work out all of the kinks from the weekend. i am not trying to work anyone harder, like i said before you guys go over and above to make this great for us racers.

thanks nancy

10-10-2005, 06:15 PM
Nancy,

Just for the record, you were the one that told your staff that I could not protest at TWS! After demanding that I wanted someone else to speak with me I found out that I could. Once again confusion! If looking at a piece of paper is "jumping through hoops" I am certainly confused? I agree with Brandon, we could simply take the position that the manual scorer came up with, at least it would be points. In case you guys missed it, we said the racer would be FINED for the missing transponder. This seems so simple to fix, I don't understand the resistance. I believe that WERA offers the racer the option of a fine in this situation, this came from a good source.

Nobody said that manual scoring is easy or that the staffs job is easy, why are we talking about that? We have the info available because we manually score every race....right? Why not help out the racer? I don't think that any racer would care if someone was scored because they forgot their transponder, they know that it could happen to them sooner or later. I know that I would never want to take someones hard earned position away for not having a transponder on their bike. I have too much respect for every racer out there to win like that!

Everybody makes mistakes, one day this rule will cost someone a championship. Wouldn't that suck!

10-10-2005, 06:15 PM
Nancy,

Just for the record, you were the one that told your staff that I could not protest at TWS! After demanding that I wanted someone else to speak with me I found out that I could. Once again confusion! If looking at a piece of paper is "jumping through hoops" I am certainly confused? I agree with Brandon, we could simply take the position that the manual scorer came up with, at least it would be points. In case you guys missed it, we said the racer would be FINED for the missing transponder. This seems so simple to fix, I don't understand the resistance. I believe that WERA offers the racer the option of a fine in this situation, this came from a good source.

Nobody said that manual scoring is easy or that the staffs job is easy, why are we talking about that? We have the info available because we manually score every race....right? Why not help out the racer? I don't think that any racer would care if someone was scored because they forgot their transponder, they know that it could happen to them sooner or later. I know that I would never want to take someones hard earned position away for not having a transponder on their bike. I have too much respect for every racer out there to win like that!

Everybody makes mistakes, one day this rule will cost someone a championship. Wouldn't that suck!

10-10-2005, 09:06 PM
Walter,

I just noticed the bottom portion of your post about taking responibility and the electric bill scenario. I have actually had my electricity turned off by mistake, I called in and they fixed the problem!

The results are on a computer, they are not going anywhere. Why don't we quit trying to get results posted before the race ends and try to do things better? I brought this up because I thought it would make the CMRA better as a whole, I have never protested anything and I certainly am not trying to make life harder on anyone.

Walter, you do a good job and I know that you try and be fair to everyone. Sometimes change is good and I think that this is an area for improvement. I just think that if this topic keeps coming up, maybe there is a reason behind it!

This is not about me, it is for everyone! I have never lost anything due to my transponder problem....yet!

10-10-2005, 09:06 PM
Walter,

I just noticed the bottom portion of your post about taking responibility and the electric bill scenario. I have actually had my electricity turned off by mistake, I called in and they fixed the problem!

The results are on a computer, they are not going anywhere. Why don't we quit trying to get results posted before the race ends and try to do things better? I brought this up because I thought it would make the CMRA better as a whole, I have never protested anything and I certainly am not trying to make life harder on anyone.

Walter, you do a good job and I know that you try and be fair to everyone. Sometimes change is good and I think that this is an area for improvement. I just think that if this topic keeps coming up, maybe there is a reason behind it!

This is not about me, it is for everyone! I have never lost anything due to my transponder problem....yet!

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 09:28 PM
Randall, what was it that you were filling out a protest form for that I told my staff not to accept? Please refresh my memory. The only thing I remember was that you were trying to use someone else's transponder who was also using it that same day. Is that the protest you're refering to?

Brandon, I understand that it may be a MISTAKE that a rider FORGETS to put his transponder on because he's so busy during the day. My question is why should we change the rules to accommodate the fact that a rider makes a mistake?

We can't change the way we run the race day just because someone forgets to do what they're supposed to. With so many people involved in the race weekend it's a bit unreasonable to think that everyone needs to change the way things operate because one or two aren't prepared.

Nancy Selleck
10-10-2005, 09:28 PM
Randall, what was it that you were filling out a protest form for that I told my staff not to accept? Please refresh my memory. The only thing I remember was that you were trying to use someone else's transponder who was also using it that same day. Is that the protest you're refering to?

Brandon, I understand that it may be a MISTAKE that a rider FORGETS to put his transponder on because he's so busy during the day. My question is why should we change the rules to accommodate the fact that a rider makes a mistake?

We can't change the way we run the race day just because someone forgets to do what they're supposed to. With so many people involved in the race weekend it's a bit unreasonable to think that everyone needs to change the way things operate because one or two aren't prepared.

10-10-2005, 11:06 PM
Nancy, I was trying to protest the fact that someone had removed my transponder and I was not scored. I was informed when I pulled in the pits and I went directly to registration.

I was also trying to use a different transponder since mine was missing, we eventually got that worked out.

I think we need to stop looking at this as rewarding someone for making a mistake. If you race and put yourself at risk then you should at least be scored. The rule should be changed because the riders deserve it! Remember, it is not one rider, this happens every race weekend and someone pays for it. My question is why shouldn't we change it? If it's only because it would be more work to simply look at the manual score sheet, then that seems ridiculous to me.

I bet that it would take around 60 seconds to actually go to the score sheet and enter it into the computer. You guys know immediately when someone is missing their transponder, when this happens just prepare to have the results for the racer ready...fine them for the mistake....and go on to the next race.

Is there any other rule that disqualifies a racer for missing something on accident?

10-10-2005, 11:06 PM
Nancy, I was trying to protest the fact that someone had removed my transponder and I was not scored. I was informed when I pulled in the pits and I went directly to registration.

I was also trying to use a different transponder since mine was missing, we eventually got that worked out.

I think we need to stop looking at this as rewarding someone for making a mistake. If you race and put yourself at risk then you should at least be scored. The rule should be changed because the riders deserve it! Remember, it is not one rider, this happens every race weekend and someone pays for it. My question is why shouldn't we change it? If it's only because it would be more work to simply look at the manual score sheet, then that seems ridiculous to me.

I bet that it would take around 60 seconds to actually go to the score sheet and enter it into the computer. You guys know immediately when someone is missing their transponder, when this happens just prepare to have the results for the racer ready...fine them for the mistake....and go on to the next race.

Is there any other rule that disqualifies a racer for missing something on accident?

Derek Delpero
10-10-2005, 11:46 PM
Randall,

No this does not happen every weekend.

Your time estimate is way off. There is much more too it than just plugging someone in. I wish it were easier, but it isn't. Furthermore as Nancy has stated, we, (Nancy and myself) have to focus on the current race, not the one where <insert name> forgot their transponder.

No we don't always *immediately* see that someone does not have a transponder. Sometimes we catch it, sometimes we don't. Once we determine that a bike might not be working, it could take us a few laps to figure out who is missing. Think about 5 bikes going by at one time, trying to determine that each bike was actually picked is challenging.

As for manual results, we do verify them and have been doing so since the incident with Myles. That only takes a few moments, but if we have to fix something, with so many other things going on, results will be delayed pretty much until we can find time between races to fix it. And doing so distracts us from being able to make sure everything else is working ... see the cycle?

I know there are risks involved in racing, but I really can't buy the risk/reward argument. You do realize that if you finished 39th or worse that you wouldn't receive any points. Should we just give everyone who goes on the track at least 1 point for their effort?

Besides that rule book thing I keep talking about clearly states:

(section 3.11)
It is the riderís responsibility to mount the scoring transponder to his/her machine per
Section 5. Riders participating in races without transponders mounted will not be scored for that
event.

It is the riderís responsibility to have their assigned competition number on their machine.
Riders participating in races without the correct competition number will be disqualified.

And to answer your last question, yes, put the wrong numbers on your bike and deal with Kim. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Derek Delpero
10-10-2005, 11:46 PM
Randall,

No this does not happen every weekend.

Your time estimate is way off. There is much more too it than just plugging someone in. I wish it were easier, but it isn't. Furthermore as Nancy has stated, we, (Nancy and myself) have to focus on the current race, not the one where <insert name> forgot their transponder.

No we don't always *immediately* see that someone does not have a transponder. Sometimes we catch it, sometimes we don't. Once we determine that a bike might not be working, it could take us a few laps to figure out who is missing. Think about 5 bikes going by at one time, trying to determine that each bike was actually picked is challenging.

As for manual results, we do verify them and have been doing so since the incident with Myles. That only takes a few moments, but if we have to fix something, with so many other things going on, results will be delayed pretty much until we can find time between races to fix it. And doing so distracts us from being able to make sure everything else is working ... see the cycle?

I know there are risks involved in racing, but I really can't buy the risk/reward argument. You do realize that if you finished 39th or worse that you wouldn't receive any points. Should we just give everyone who goes on the track at least 1 point for their effort?

Besides that rule book thing I keep talking about clearly states:

(section 3.11)
It is the riderís responsibility to mount the scoring transponder to his/her machine per
Section 5. Riders participating in races without transponders mounted will not be scored for that
event.

It is the riderís responsibility to have their assigned competition number on their machine.
Riders participating in races without the correct competition number will be disqualified.

And to answer your last question, yes, put the wrong numbers on your bike and deal with Kim. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Walter Walker
10-11-2005, 12:08 AM
You would lose that bet!! If it's a big grid it could take most of the race to figure out if someone is missing a transponder.

Randall, it looks like we should just agree to disagree.

I will make sure the BOD heres your complaints. We will be starting on the 2006 rulebook very soon. We will try and reword it so that it's less confusing.

A geat man once said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

Walter Walker
10-11-2005, 12:08 AM
You would lose that bet!! If it's a big grid it could take most of the race to figure out if someone is missing a transponder.

Randall, it looks like we should just agree to disagree.

I will make sure the BOD heres your complaints. We will be starting on the 2006 rulebook very soon. We will try and reword it so that it's less confusing.

A geat man once said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

Alan Etheredge
10-11-2005, 12:27 AM
I refused to accept a protest of a jumped-start / meatball decision by grid officials at TWS. This was protest was refused after checking with Derek D by radio to confirm this is a non-protestable matter (see rulebook 7.2 paragraph 1). SO, it is correct, not all attempted protests are accepted by registration staff. BTW this was not Randy's protest.

Much more typical is a racer walking in and asking questions about a situation without saying straight out that they want to file a protest. I understand and appreciate that not all racers are 'protest inclined' but if those discussions advance without satisfaction (which is usually obvious pretty quickly) I invariably ask the racer if they want to file a protest if we are within the 30 minute window. Fill out the form, give me the CASH for protest fee, I sign and "time stamp" it and your protest is lodged.

Less frequent but easiest to deal with for me is the racer that comes in and straight out says they want to file a protest. I will ask generally "whassup?" as a quick screen for non-protestable items or quicker solution through scoring confirmation. If the quick solution isn't available you will get the form and the 30 minute clock stops when I get your protest fee and completed form.

If you were clearly in registration asking to file a protest before the 30 minutes is up, I've exercised lattitude in the past on the "clock", giving grace for the approximate time I wasted trying to find the quick solution with E-Scoring, if any. Otherwise, I'm pretty strict on getting the form and cash to me in the 30 minute alloted time per rulebook. That's the best way I know to be equitable to all racers

FYI, accepting a protest form and fee is no big wiff for me at all ... Just Do It.

My turn to rant .... if you are serious enough about this stuff that championship points count for you, then get your act together and be totally serious. Drop of this selective BS about what, in your opinion, counts and doesn't count in the rulebook.

Transponders provide a benefit to all racers according to you, the racers ... I see first hand the demand for rapid lap time sheets, real-time displays and prompt accurate results. Why should everyone pay the price (delay of the above mentioned "luxuries" now taken-for-granted as an entitlement)of any racer's mental laziness about mounting an operating transponder (any more than they should pay for that racer's mental laziness on the track)?

It is a difficult balance, trying to satisfy both the folks that are true "club racers" and the folks that want this to be the "semi-pro league." IMHO the BOD, Walter and Nancy doing a hell of a job on that tightrope. More IMHO, if you are among those that want this to "play like the big league" then you have even more responsibility to act like a big-league player. If you're swinging the bat, its your job to know that corkin' ain't legal and that your bat ain't corked.

Serious suggestion ... spend less off-track time arguing about the rules and more time working on a personal race-prep scheme that helps you consistently be prepared to race competitively within the rules.

No edit - I've re-read it and I'll deal with the flames.

Alan Etheredge
10-11-2005, 12:27 AM
I refused to accept a protest of a jumped-start / meatball decision by grid officials at TWS. This was protest was refused after checking with Derek D by radio to confirm this is a non-protestable matter (see rulebook 7.2 paragraph 1). SO, it is correct, not all attempted protests are accepted by registration staff. BTW this was not Randy's protest.

Much more typical is a racer walking in and asking questions about a situation without saying straight out that they want to file a protest. I understand and appreciate that not all racers are 'protest inclined' but if those discussions advance without satisfaction (which is usually obvious pretty quickly) I invariably ask the racer if they want to file a protest if we are within the 30 minute window. Fill out the form, give me the CASH for protest fee, I sign and "time stamp" it and your protest is lodged.

Less frequent but easiest to deal with for me is the racer that comes in and straight out says they want to file a protest. I will ask generally "whassup?" as a quick screen for non-protestable items or quicker solution through scoring confirmation. If the quick solution isn't available you will get the form and the 30 minute clock stops when I get your protest fee and completed form.

If you were clearly in registration asking to file a protest before the 30 minutes is up, I've exercised lattitude in the past on the "clock", giving grace for the approximate time I wasted trying to find the quick solution with E-Scoring, if any. Otherwise, I'm pretty strict on getting the form and cash to me in the 30 minute alloted time per rulebook. That's the best way I know to be equitable to all racers

FYI, accepting a protest form and fee is no big wiff for me at all ... Just Do It.

My turn to rant .... if you are serious enough about this stuff that championship points count for you, then get your act together and be totally serious. Drop of this selective BS about what, in your opinion, counts and doesn't count in the rulebook.

Transponders provide a benefit to all racers according to you, the racers ... I see first hand the demand for rapid lap time sheets, real-time displays and prompt accurate results. Why should everyone pay the price (delay of the above mentioned "luxuries" now taken-for-granted as an entitlement)of any racer's mental laziness about mounting an operating transponder (any more than they should pay for that racer's mental laziness on the track)?

It is a difficult balance, trying to satisfy both the folks that are true "club racers" and the folks that want this to be the "semi-pro league." IMHO the BOD, Walter and Nancy doing a hell of a job on that tightrope. More IMHO, if you are among those that want this to "play like the big league" then you have even more responsibility to act like a big-league player. If you're swinging the bat, its your job to know that corkin' ain't legal and that your bat ain't corked.

Serious suggestion ... spend less off-track time arguing about the rules and more time working on a personal race-prep scheme that helps you consistently be prepared to race competitively within the rules.

No edit - I've re-read it and I'll deal with the flames.

10-11-2005, 08:39 AM
Alan,

I still love ya man! I am not trying to make this a Pro league or anything else, I just thought these changes might be good for everyone. If riders are happy and not *****ing, then everybody's life is easier. The CMRA is very competetive in the expert sprint classes and even novice. Some weekends we have 5 AMA guys on the grid, I personally like it because it makes me better. I think the CMRA was a big boy league before I got here /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Thanks for your feedback I appreciate it.

Walter,

I think we are the many in your qoute and you are the few but I will agree that we disagree and let the others decide. I wonder if other racers share your views, maybe I am off base?

Derek,

I may be off on my times but I guarantee that ever racer would rather wait 5-10 more minutes for results. The results don't have to be posted before the next race can go, do they?

Remember, these were suggestions, not demands! I feel like this is getting personal, so I will not comment anymore on the subject. Thank you all for your views, I do understand the staffs point of view and I can appreciate it as well.
All of you do a great job at controlling 500? racers per event, I know that anything else, can sometimes be too much. I understand that the plates are full and you guys are doing the best you can, I actually thought this might help both sides?

Peace

10-11-2005, 08:39 AM
Alan,

I still love ya man! I am not trying to make this a Pro league or anything else, I just thought these changes might be good for everyone. If riders are happy and not *****ing, then everybody's life is easier. The CMRA is very competetive in the expert sprint classes and even novice. Some weekends we have 5 AMA guys on the grid, I personally like it because it makes me better. I think the CMRA was a big boy league before I got here /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Thanks for your feedback I appreciate it.

Walter,

I think we are the many in your qoute and you are the few but I will agree that we disagree and let the others decide. I wonder if other racers share your views, maybe I am off base?

Derek,

I may be off on my times but I guarantee that ever racer would rather wait 5-10 more minutes for results. The results don't have to be posted before the next race can go, do they?

Remember, these were suggestions, not demands! I feel like this is getting personal, so I will not comment anymore on the subject. Thank you all for your views, I do understand the staffs point of view and I can appreciate it as well.
All of you do a great job at controlling 500? racers per event, I know that anything else, can sometimes be too much. I understand that the plates are full and you guys are doing the best you can, I actually thought this might help both sides?

Peace

David Branyon
10-11-2005, 01:55 PM
One thought that argues for keeping the quick turnaround and 30 minute time limit: Randall you said, "The results don't have to be posted before the next race can go, do they?"

Well, there is a problem there in the snowballing area. If they wait to post the results, the others don't know if they need to protest. If the situation is that you "know" you got x position, but then you see the results posted and you are listed in x+1 (or x+10), you need to go file a protest. If we hold off on posting the results, you won't know that there was an error until later. Then you have to extend the protest period a little longer, which makes it even longer until you know the results, which makes it longer until you know you need to protest,...

There may be another dozen ramifications like this that we haven't thought of yet. Maybe not.

Good discussion guys.

David Branyon
10-11-2005, 01:55 PM
One thought that argues for keeping the quick turnaround and 30 minute time limit: Randall you said, "The results don't have to be posted before the next race can go, do they?"

Well, there is a problem there in the snowballing area. If they wait to post the results, the others don't know if they need to protest. If the situation is that you "know" you got x position, but then you see the results posted and you are listed in x+1 (or x+10), you need to go file a protest. If we hold off on posting the results, you won't know that there was an error until later. Then you have to extend the protest period a little longer, which makes it even longer until you know the results, which makes it longer until you know you need to protest,...

There may be another dozen ramifications like this that we haven't thought of yet. Maybe not.

Good discussion guys.

Derek Delpero
10-11-2005, 02:17 PM
David,

The protest period starts when the results are posted, not when the race is over.

Randall,

As I said initially, it is not a problem to review the results, we already do that. The problem is fixing them, that is what takes time. Sure we can wait, but once the next race starts, Nancy and I have to focus on the new race. You may have noticed that when there are problems it usually takes a few races to get something fixed.

If I'm spending most of my time fixing results because people can't remember their transponder, then I'm not able to make sure people who should be scored do get scored. Does that make sense? I'd rather focus on making sure the person who showed up on the grid ready to go doesn't get screwed out of a position, not the person who isn't prepared.

Like Walter said, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Derek Delpero
10-11-2005, 02:17 PM
David,

The protest period starts when the results are posted, not when the race is over.

Randall,

As I said initially, it is not a problem to review the results, we already do that. The problem is fixing them, that is what takes time. Sure we can wait, but once the next race starts, Nancy and I have to focus on the new race. You may have noticed that when there are problems it usually takes a few races to get something fixed.

If I'm spending most of my time fixing results because people can't remember their transponder, then I'm not able to make sure people who should be scored do get scored. Does that make sense? I'd rather focus on making sure the person who showed up on the grid ready to go doesn't get screwed out of a position, not the person who isn't prepared.

Like Walter said, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

John Orchard
10-11-2005, 04:25 PM
Other club's use transponders and undoubtedly have similar scoring questions and issues. In fact, WERA requires you to mount your transponder on your fork tubes (which btw, is a much improved location for transponders during a crash) which aren't usually visible to scorers etc.

Do all clubs DQ everyone without a transponder? Or, do other clubs have other ways of handling these same issues?

John Orchard
10-11-2005, 04:25 PM
Other club's use transponders and undoubtedly have similar scoring questions and issues. In fact, WERA requires you to mount your transponder on your fork tubes (which btw, is a much improved location for transponders during a crash) which aren't usually visible to scorers etc.

Do all clubs DQ everyone without a transponder? Or, do other clubs have other ways of handling these same issues?

SAM ROMEO
10-11-2005, 04:47 PM
Twice this year I forgot to switch Bubba's transponder. I was able to make up for it once but the other time we were s o l. I've read this thread with interest since I was guilty several times of forgetting. The attitude vibes I'm getting from this don't jive with what my interpretation of our sport and our club are. I loaned a rider a bike this year that Bubba was in a points chase with at that time for the simple reason that I refused to win by points by default if I could help it (we got beat too). We win on the race track!! Not in the pits and not by a competitors bike sitting in the trailer or his transponder on the wrong bike... Seems to me that some of our officers and several of our riders have a different view from mine and I sincerely think it's your loss, not mine.

SAM ROMEO
10-11-2005, 04:47 PM
Twice this year I forgot to switch Bubba's transponder. I was able to make up for it once but the other time we were s o l. I've read this thread with interest since I was guilty several times of forgetting. The attitude vibes I'm getting from this don't jive with what my interpretation of our sport and our club are. I loaned a rider a bike this year that Bubba was in a points chase with at that time for the simple reason that I refused to win by points by default if I could help it (we got beat too). We win on the race track!! Not in the pits and not by a competitors bike sitting in the trailer or his transponder on the wrong bike... Seems to me that some of our officers and several of our riders have a different view from mine and I sincerely think it's your loss, not mine.

10-11-2005, 06:51 PM
Well said Sam! Ithink that is exactly what this club is about. I loaned out half of my gsxr 750 this year to West-E, he is one of my biggest competitors. I would never want to win any other way.

I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore but Sam inspired me, kinda like Jerry McGuire I guess.

Derek, I do understand your side and I want you to know that I appreciate everything you do for the club! I was curious, when the CMRA scored manually a couple years ago, how long did it take to post the results?

Peace

10-11-2005, 06:51 PM
Well said Sam! Ithink that is exactly what this club is about. I loaned out half of my gsxr 750 this year to West-E, he is one of my biggest competitors. I would never want to win any other way.

I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore but Sam inspired me, kinda like Jerry McGuire I guess.

Derek, I do understand your side and I want you to know that I appreciate everything you do for the club! I was curious, when the CMRA scored manually a couple years ago, how long did it take to post the results?

Peace

Derek Delpero
10-11-2005, 06:55 PM
John O -

From the AFM rule book:

2.3.11 Scoring transmitters are required for all Competition and Reciprocity members,
and must be mounted and functioning during all practices and races; failure to do so may
jeopardize scoring of your race finish.

From CCS:
Section 3.4.7

C. In electronically scored events, it is the riders responsibility to properly mount and
secure the Electronic Scoring Unit (ESU) to his machine per the regulations in
Section 5.4 of this rulebook. Failure to comply with these instructions could result
in disqualification at the discretion of the Race Director or Referee
(1) If a rider has entered multiple machines in the event, it is the riders
responsibility to transfer the ESU between machines and assure that it is
securely fastened. Failure to comply with this rule could result in disqualification
at the discretion of the Race Director or Referee.

WERA and WSMC do not say anything about transponders in sprint races. At least I couldn't find anything.

All them seem to echo the same idea concerning numbers on the bike. That is, if you have the wrong number or they are difficult for the scorers to read, you will be DQ'd.

Seems like we aren't too far out of line with the other club level race organizations.

Derek Delpero
10-11-2005, 06:55 PM
John O -

From the AFM rule book:

2.3.11 Scoring transmitters are required for all Competition and Reciprocity members,
and must be mounted and functioning during all practices and races; failure to do so may
jeopardize scoring of your race finish.

From CCS:
Section 3.4.7

C. In electronically scored events, it is the riders responsibility to properly mount and
secure the Electronic Scoring Unit (ESU) to his machine per the regulations in
Section 5.4 of this rulebook. Failure to comply with these instructions could result
in disqualification at the discretion of the Race Director or Referee
(1) If a rider has entered multiple machines in the event, it is the riders
responsibility to transfer the ESU between machines and assure that it is
securely fastened. Failure to comply with this rule could result in disqualification
at the discretion of the Race Director or Referee.

WERA and WSMC do not say anything about transponders in sprint races. At least I couldn't find anything.

All them seem to echo the same idea concerning numbers on the bike. That is, if you have the wrong number or they are difficult for the scorers to read, you will be DQ'd.

Seems like we aren't too far out of line with the other club level race organizations.

Brandon Spradling
10-11-2005, 08:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nancy Selleck:


Brandon, I understand that it may be a MISTAKE that a rider FORGETS to put his transponder on because he's so busy during the day. My question is why should we change the rules to accommodate the fact that a rider makes a mistake?
</div></div>No one should change the rules to accomodate any one rider. I bet though as i already stated, that any racer knows that MISTAKES happen and that this MISTAKE could happen to them, therefore any of us could be put in this situation.

let me give you an example that did happen to me this last race weekend. when we decided to go to the short course and we had the 10 min practice. i went out on my bike and the very first lap pulling out of hot pit my transponder flew off the bike. my brake arm broke and hit my tail section knocking the trasponder off. i didnt feel this i just happend to look back to see if a friend was still behind me and i noticed it missing. if this had not been practice and i had not turned around i would have road that race with out knowing my brake are was broken other wise i would have pulled in, and been DQed. thank god i pulled up to hott pit and told walter and he handed me a transponder to use for the race.

now back to my point if the opinion is shared by many of the members in this club, then it should be up for review by the BOD. i dont know how many people think the way i do or randall does for that matter but i would hope to get a chance to find out. i'm also interested in hearing what a few of the BOd members have to say about this topic.

nancy, no one can thank you and the rest of the staff enough for the time and effort that you put in to helping this club and making this a fun place to race, but if there is a problem i would hope that we could all work together to fix it and not just snip it since what we have works, when something else might work better.

Brandon Spradling
10-11-2005, 08:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nancy Selleck:


Brandon, I understand that it may be a MISTAKE that a rider FORGETS to put his transponder on because he's so busy during the day. My question is why should we change the rules to accommodate the fact that a rider makes a mistake?
</div></div>No one should change the rules to accomodate any one rider. I bet though as i already stated, that any racer knows that MISTAKES happen and that this MISTAKE could happen to them, therefore any of us could be put in this situation.

let me give you an example that did happen to me this last race weekend. when we decided to go to the short course and we had the 10 min practice. i went out on my bike and the very first lap pulling out of hot pit my transponder flew off the bike. my brake arm broke and hit my tail section knocking the trasponder off. i didnt feel this i just happend to look back to see if a friend was still behind me and i noticed it missing. if this had not been practice and i had not turned around i would have road that race with out knowing my brake are was broken other wise i would have pulled in, and been DQed. thank god i pulled up to hott pit and told walter and he handed me a transponder to use for the race.

now back to my point if the opinion is shared by many of the members in this club, then it should be up for review by the BOD. i dont know how many people think the way i do or randall does for that matter but i would hope to get a chance to find out. i'm also interested in hearing what a few of the BOd members have to say about this topic.

nancy, no one can thank you and the rest of the staff enough for the time and effort that you put in to helping this club and making this a fun place to race, but if there is a problem i would hope that we could all work together to fix it and not just snip it since what we have works, when something else might work better.

Russel Green
10-11-2005, 10:45 PM
I can simpathize with a racers plight in that with something so small as a transponder it is easy to take it forgranted. I have a question on this subject. At Hallet in Aug, my first race weekend, I was preping to go out after a red flag and as I climbed on the bike I kicked the transponder into the grass. In full gear and boots I didn't notice till a friend began yelling frantically for me to stop, grabbed duct tape and strapped it back down. Would I have been DQ'd if I had raced after kicking the transponder? Personally, I think a penalty fine or double entry fee would be a great idea.

Russel Green
10-11-2005, 10:45 PM
I can simpathize with a racers plight in that with something so small as a transponder it is easy to take it forgranted. I have a question on this subject. At Hallet in Aug, my first race weekend, I was preping to go out after a red flag and as I climbed on the bike I kicked the transponder into the grass. In full gear and boots I didn't notice till a friend began yelling frantically for me to stop, grabbed duct tape and strapped it back down. Would I have been DQ'd if I had raced after kicking the transponder? Personally, I think a penalty fine or double entry fee would be a great idea.

10-12-2005, 07:59 AM
Yes Russel, you would be disqualified. There is no grey area, you either have it on the bike or you don't! This is a great example and I hope more racers speak up on this thread!

10-12-2005, 07:59 AM
Yes Russel, you would be disqualified. There is no grey area, you either have it on the bike or you don't! This is a great example and I hope more racers speak up on this thread!

Jason Keene
10-12-2005, 07:59 AM
I don't have a problem with the current set up.

IMHO.

I've learned the hard way to be meticulous... I agree stuff happens and usually at times when we need things to be in our favor...

I tape my transponder along with 2 other methods of securing the bracket and unit... I kick it all the time... I would like to put it somewhere else... I see both sides and IMHO out of 500 or so entries on a Sunday about 2 percent have issues. Maybe as much as 10 percent for the year...

I think things are fine...

For the folks that suggested a fine for an infraction... Entry fee equivalent sounds low to me... I think that if a fine is an option it should be equivalent to the cost of the transponder. Then the rider could put up or ______________ (insert catch phrase)

I'm not saying folks don't work really hard to avoid such instances, but that kind heavy toll would probably hit a little harder to home...

Jason Keene
10-12-2005, 07:59 AM
I don't have a problem with the current set up.

IMHO.

I've learned the hard way to be meticulous... I agree stuff happens and usually at times when we need things to be in our favor...

I tape my transponder along with 2 other methods of securing the bracket and unit... I kick it all the time... I would like to put it somewhere else... I see both sides and IMHO out of 500 or so entries on a Sunday about 2 percent have issues. Maybe as much as 10 percent for the year...

I think things are fine...

For the folks that suggested a fine for an infraction... Entry fee equivalent sounds low to me... I think that if a fine is an option it should be equivalent to the cost of the transponder. Then the rider could put up or ______________ (insert catch phrase)

I'm not saying folks don't work really hard to avoid such instances, but that kind heavy toll would probably hit a little harder to home...

Andy Galindo
10-12-2005, 09:52 AM
I do think a DQ is a bit harsh. I totally understand the club's position and the reason they put their foot down. But perhaps the choice to pay a hefty fine (I don't know- $200?) rather than a dq, so the rider has the option to not totally lose his points/ championship/ contingency...

Of course, there is still the larger problem of actually getting scored without a transponder, to which one can only hope that the problem is discovered with enough time to find a spare from a friend, (or Walter /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif ), and to get it sorted out with scoring before racing. Manual scoring backup would be nice, but I understand the logistical problems already mentioned.

I think even the most prepared and meticulous racer could encounter a similar situation, and an "exercise of discretion" in applying the rules would be nice, or at least maybe a small change in the rule itself (ie a fine) so that the officials aren't burdened with a "gray area". Walter, Nancy, Derek, everyone else involved- thanks for your tremendous efforts! You guys are the ones doing the job, and you run a pretty good show.

Andy Galindo
10-12-2005, 09:52 AM
I do think a DQ is a bit harsh. I totally understand the club's position and the reason they put their foot down. But perhaps the choice to pay a hefty fine (I don't know- $200?) rather than a dq, so the rider has the option to not totally lose his points/ championship/ contingency...

Of course, there is still the larger problem of actually getting scored without a transponder, to which one can only hope that the problem is discovered with enough time to find a spare from a friend, (or Walter /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif ), and to get it sorted out with scoring before racing. Manual scoring backup would be nice, but I understand the logistical problems already mentioned.

I think even the most prepared and meticulous racer could encounter a similar situation, and an "exercise of discretion" in applying the rules would be nice, or at least maybe a small change in the rule itself (ie a fine) so that the officials aren't burdened with a "gray area". Walter, Nancy, Derek, everyone else involved- thanks for your tremendous efforts! You guys are the ones doing the job, and you run a pretty good show.

Steve Breen
10-12-2005, 11:20 AM
Randall, this topic is on the BoD agenda for our next meeting.

Steve Breen
10-12-2005, 11:20 AM
Randall, this topic is on the BoD agenda for our next meeting.

Bob Cronin
10-12-2005, 12:03 PM
May I ask a question that is not specific to this thread?
Why is it that when discussions come up about modifying or changing the rulebook that the posts that come up against the topic are in the format of a rulebook quote or, (sorry Walter), "...if it ain't broke..."?
I doubt that anyone is truly questioning the ability of the club associates that give their time and energy in order for us to go out and play but merely trying to make the system a bit more user friendly.

Examples of recent rule mods would be this thread, an endurance thread now running, and an older topic touched on in this thread, transponder location.

All of these threads have something in common. They want to bring attention to possible changes and bring it up for public discussion only to be shot down before a logical end can be formulated.
To agree to disagree is basically telling someone to sit down and shut up and that there isn't to be any talk about the subject again. Is this how I am reading the thread?

Bob Cronin
10-12-2005, 12:03 PM
May I ask a question that is not specific to this thread?
Why is it that when discussions come up about modifying or changing the rulebook that the posts that come up against the topic are in the format of a rulebook quote or, (sorry Walter), "...if it ain't broke..."?
I doubt that anyone is truly questioning the ability of the club associates that give their time and energy in order for us to go out and play but merely trying to make the system a bit more user friendly.

Examples of recent rule mods would be this thread, an endurance thread now running, and an older topic touched on in this thread, transponder location.

All of these threads have something in common. They want to bring attention to possible changes and bring it up for public discussion only to be shot down before a logical end can be formulated.
To agree to disagree is basically telling someone to sit down and shut up and that there isn't to be any talk about the subject again. Is this how I am reading the thread?

SAM ROMEO
10-12-2005, 02:32 PM
Bob
Thats an interesting question.

SAM ROMEO
10-12-2005, 02:32 PM
Bob
Thats an interesting question.

10-12-2005, 03:24 PM
Steve,

Thank you for having a look at this issue. I know the BOD will come up with a logical solution or an answer that is fair to everyone involved.

thanks again!!!

10-12-2005, 03:24 PM
Steve,

Thank you for having a look at this issue. I know the BOD will come up with a logical solution or an answer that is fair to everyone involved.

thanks again!!!

David Milner
10-12-2005, 09:27 PM
When we went to the short course on Sunday, and Barry pulled us in to watch the turns, we did pick up a transponder going into the 3rd turn of the short track (sorry, don't know how they are numbered in that config and don't remember which race) and we grabbed it and called it in along with the bike number we thought it came off of. On the next lap, we confirmed the bike number.

the mount was melted, but the transponder was still blinking. But, I'm pretty sure that the rider was scored because the loss of transponder happened in (as I count) turn 6.

This is my first full season so I don't pretend to know ALL the rules and regulations, but I do know from experience in other aspects of life, that if you don't take care of it, no one else will. In college, filling out your test sheet and leaving it on the desk didn't mean you got a score. Most often, you got an F because you didn't turn it in.

I attach the mount with a zip tie, then safety wire the clip, then put duct tape over everything. How could I not notice it wasn't there.

I understand the fact of multiple bikes and switching between them. I've got mounting posts on both bikes so it's the same. Switch, wire, tape and off we go. it's the responsibility of the rider to make sure that their bike is ready to race. If they make a mistake and forget the transponder, yea, it might be someone elses responsibility to pick up the slack. What if they fail to check their brake pads that there is enough life for the race. Or back to what I said about gas in the bike.

The end result is that someone else is looked to for a lapse in judgement or observation.

Granted, no system is perfect, but do we need more rules to govern personal conduct and responsibility?

David

David Milner
10-12-2005, 09:27 PM
When we went to the short course on Sunday, and Barry pulled us in to watch the turns, we did pick up a transponder going into the 3rd turn of the short track (sorry, don't know how they are numbered in that config and don't remember which race) and we grabbed it and called it in along with the bike number we thought it came off of. On the next lap, we confirmed the bike number.

the mount was melted, but the transponder was still blinking. But, I'm pretty sure that the rider was scored because the loss of transponder happened in (as I count) turn 6.

This is my first full season so I don't pretend to know ALL the rules and regulations, but I do know from experience in other aspects of life, that if you don't take care of it, no one else will. In college, filling out your test sheet and leaving it on the desk didn't mean you got a score. Most often, you got an F because you didn't turn it in.

I attach the mount with a zip tie, then safety wire the clip, then put duct tape over everything. How could I not notice it wasn't there.

I understand the fact of multiple bikes and switching between them. I've got mounting posts on both bikes so it's the same. Switch, wire, tape and off we go. it's the responsibility of the rider to make sure that their bike is ready to race. If they make a mistake and forget the transponder, yea, it might be someone elses responsibility to pick up the slack. What if they fail to check their brake pads that there is enough life for the race. Or back to what I said about gas in the bike.

The end result is that someone else is looked to for a lapse in judgement or observation.

Granted, no system is perfect, but do we need more rules to govern personal conduct and responsibility?

David

10-13-2005, 08:45 AM
David,

An "F" is still a score /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif . What if the racer that owned the transponder you found wasn't scored? Do you think he meant for it to melt off?

It's like insurance when you wreck your car or if someone robbed your house, you didnt mean for it to happen, it just did. The insurance, That you pay for, is there to help out when you need it /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

It is the racers responsibility to remember everything that goes on the bike and the nesc. equipment. In certain situations (TWS) things can get hectic and when you are switching bikes and filling tanks and checking brake pads, it is possible to forget that little piece of equipment that scores you. Let's face it, if we forget something it will never be our helmet, leathers ,boots or gloves. Gas and brake pads are possible as well, both of those would never get ya DQ"D though.

As I said before, this rule is for everyone that might forget the transponder eventually. It will never be a problem for me personally again, I will not be in a points chase next year and I will probably never forget to check it again.

peace

10-13-2005, 08:45 AM
David,

An "F" is still a score /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif . What if the racer that owned the transponder you found wasn't scored? Do you think he meant for it to melt off?

It's like insurance when you wreck your car or if someone robbed your house, you didnt mean for it to happen, it just did. The insurance, That you pay for, is there to help out when you need it /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

It is the racers responsibility to remember everything that goes on the bike and the nesc. equipment. In certain situations (TWS) things can get hectic and when you are switching bikes and filling tanks and checking brake pads, it is possible to forget that little piece of equipment that scores you. Let's face it, if we forget something it will never be our helmet, leathers ,boots or gloves. Gas and brake pads are possible as well, both of those would never get ya DQ"D though.

As I said before, this rule is for everyone that might forget the transponder eventually. It will never be a problem for me personally again, I will not be in a points chase next year and I will probably never forget to check it again.

peace

Keith Hertell
10-13-2005, 09:27 AM
Dead Horse Alert!!!!

Somebody kill it PLEASE!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Keith Hertell
10-13-2005, 09:27 AM
Dead Horse Alert!!!!

Somebody kill it PLEASE!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Jason Keene
10-13-2005, 11:02 AM
Ditto

Jason Keene
10-13-2005, 11:02 AM
Ditto

10-13-2005, 02:13 PM
Stop looking if it's dead /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

10-13-2005, 02:13 PM
Stop looking if it's dead /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Brandon Spradling
10-13-2005, 10:55 PM
david, nobody here is asking for a race official to stand by their bike and make sure that the transponder is mounted, nor are any of us negating the fact that it is our "the riders" fault if we do forget to put our transponder on. all we are asking for is a different outcome if these events due occure. why does it have to be a DQ? that is the question. i believe that there is an alternative solution to the problem rather than just the quick fix of giving the rider a big fat 0, for the sake of time.

ohh yeah and there wouldn't be more rules seeing as how this rule already does govern personal conduct and responsability. it would just be revised.

Brandon Spradling
10-13-2005, 10:55 PM
david, nobody here is asking for a race official to stand by their bike and make sure that the transponder is mounted, nor are any of us negating the fact that it is our "the riders" fault if we do forget to put our transponder on. all we are asking for is a different outcome if these events due occure. why does it have to be a DQ? that is the question. i believe that there is an alternative solution to the problem rather than just the quick fix of giving the rider a big fat 0, for the sake of time.

ohh yeah and there wouldn't be more rules seeing as how this rule already does govern personal conduct and responsability. it would just be revised.

10-15-2005, 02:03 PM
What if there was a fine, and all the fines were donated to the rider fund at the end of the year!! This would punish the racers that forget, reward the ones that didn't and generate some cash for the CMRA. I thought of this last night while I was dreaming, I also had a few cocktails before bed /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

25 screw ups x 200.00= $5,000.00

10-15-2005, 02:03 PM
What if there was a fine, and all the fines were donated to the rider fund at the end of the year!! This would punish the racers that forget, reward the ones that didn't and generate some cash for the CMRA. I thought of this last night while I was dreaming, I also had a few cocktails before bed /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

25 screw ups x 200.00= $5,000.00

Brandon Spradling
10-15-2005, 07:01 PM
how could you argue with that? keep on drinking /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Brandon Spradling
10-15-2005, 07:01 PM
how could you argue with that? keep on drinking /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Brandon Spradling
10-15-2005, 07:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Brandon Spradling:
how could you argue with that? keep on drinking /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

</div></div>

Brandon Spradling
10-15-2005, 07:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Brandon Spradling:
how could you argue with that? keep on drinking /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

</div></div>