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Thread: Fridays with 3:16 Trackdays

  1. #21
    "The simple truth is that not enough racers are signing up for Friday racer practice."

    Then we need to find out why and communicate with the members why so remedy could be proposed. Is this the first time this has happened in CMRA history? What was the original reason LSTD took over? They did a great job and I realize they are no longer operating track days, but would have been a good formula point to consider for future Friday practice operations.

    How did this process to make this Friday change come about? Was there a board meeting and a vote? Were there several vendors that offered proposals and then considered and voted upon? I do not want to be difficult, but I feel like this was introduced and I was surprised (maybe I missed a post or meeting and I sincerely mean that). I realize that if we do not have the money to operate the Friday day, this was an emergency to make happen properly for 2022 for planning reasons. I think we need to issue a survey to find out why participation is low so that data can be worked on in the future and mitigated. Thank you, Brandie Cox
    Last edited by Brandie Cox; 11-16-2021 at 10:39 AM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Kyle Coles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Dominguez View Post
    If I recall correctly at the riders meetings it was clearly stated it went back to novice and expert due to racers using both sessions, not using just the one they were actually supposed to be in and no way to control it. So they went back to just a novice session and an expert session. I dont recall any mention of "safety".
    If this change wasn't made for safety reasons, it needed to be made for safety reasons. I had multiple close calls that were entirely eliminated when we went back to Ex/Nov separation, and I don't speak for others, but I've heard remarks from other experts about how much safer everything was once we made the change.

    At the end of the day whether this is a success or not really boils down to what defines a success. For us racing, experts particularly, this is already a failure because the quality of the practice will be degraded and the sessions more dangerous as it stands right now with the proposed rules. This can change if the rules are amended.

    From the CMRA leadership standpoint if we really were losing money on Friday practice then I think weather will define if this ends up a success or failure. There were a LOT of poor weather Fridays. I signed up for at least 2 Fridays I can think of off the top of my head where I ended up not riding or only riding 1 or 2 sessions. I think we gave up on trying to get street riders out to Friday practices way too soon. I have seen this be very successful in another organization.

    From 3:16 track days point of view if they make money it is a success. So, to them it doesn't matter one iota if a racer comes out or not. That is bad for us since obviously we are all racers. That doesn't mean they won't try to cater to us but they really don't have any real incentive if they are getting strong trackday rider turnouts. Plus, I know a bunch of racers coach for them so the lower the quality of track time for racers the more likely they would be to just take a few bucks and coach Friday instead.

  3. #23
    Administrator Walter Walker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Klesel View Post
    If we donít pre register, the price point is basically the same.
    Then pre-enter for the lower price.



    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Klesel View Post
    My question is, will the level of safety be the same as itís been? Or is 316 eliminating some of that to reduce cost for themselves?
    There's no way to answer that question because the two formats are very different.

    I need to reiterate once again that this is going to be a trackday format not dedicated racer practice. This is a similar format to what Lonestar Trackdays offered on Fridays prior to 2017. That format worked well.

    To insinuate that 3:16 is somehow going to cheap out and sacrifice safety for money is unfair especially since not a single wheel has been turned.

    Rest assured that we (the CMRA) will be working with 3:16 to ensure that Friday goes well.

    In the mean time I would suggest that those with concerns reach out to 3:16 and ask questions. I assure you that Ignacio and team will be happy to discuss any concerns.
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  4. #24
    Administrator Walter Walker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Coles View Post
    If this change wasn't made for safety reasons, it needed to be made for safety reasons. I had multiple close calls that were entirely eliminated when we went back to Ex/Nov separation, and I don't speak for others, but I've heard remarks from other experts about how much safer everything was once we made the change.
    The change back to the Expert Novice split was made for safety reasons. Those safety reasons were directly related to the abuse of the system by multiple riders. Most being Experts BTW. Of course it seems safer to the Experts now that the Expert groups are smaller. On the Novice side not so much. The idea was to try and balance laptimes and hopefully balance the numbers in each group. It didn't work so we had no choice but to go back to the old format.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Coles View Post
    At the end of the day whether this is a success or not really boils down to what defines a success. For us racing, experts particularly, this is already a failure because the quality of the practice will be degraded and the sessions more dangerous as it stands right now with the proposed rules. This can change if the rules are amended.
    Talk to the 3:16 team about your concerns.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Coles View Post
    From the CMRA leadership standpoint if we really were losing money on Friday practice then I think weather will define if this ends up a success or failure. There were a LOT of poor weather Fridays. I signed up for at least 2 Fridays I can think of off the top of my head where I ended up not riding or only riding 1 or 2 sessions. I think we gave up on trying to get street riders out to Friday practices way too soon. I have seen this be very successful in another organization.
    Actually over the last 3 seasons there have been more good weather days than bad. When making decisions we ALWAYS look back at historical data. Making decisions like this based on one season data would be short sighted. We pulled the plug on the street group idea largely due to complaints from racers about loosing tracktime to the small number of riders on track in the street groups. The fact that the trackday market was and is saturated in Texas also didn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Coles View Post
    From 3:16 track days point of view if they make money it is a success. So, to them it doesn't matter one iota if a racer comes out or not. That is bad for us since obviously we are all racers. That doesn't mean they won't try to cater to us but they really don't have any real incentive if they are getting strong trackday rider turnouts. Plus, I know a bunch of racers coach for them so the lower the quality of track time for racers the more likely they would be to just take a few bucks and coach Friday instead.
    It did matter to us that racers showed up for Friday practice. When they stopped showing up and Friday became barley a breakeven or a loss a change had to be made.
    Walter Walker
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Michael Klesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Walker View Post
    Then pre-enter for the lower price.





    There's no way to answer that question because the two formats are very different.

    I need to reiterate once again that this is going to be a trackday format not dedicated racer practice. This is a similar format to what Lonestar Trackdays offered on Fridays prior to 2017. That format worked well.

    To insinuate that 3:16 is somehow going to cheap out and sacrifice safety for money is unfair especially since not a single wheel has been turned.

    Rest assured that we (the CMRA) will be working with 3:16 to ensure that Friday goes well.

    In the mean time I would suggest that those with concerns reach out to 3:16 and ask questions. I assure you that Ignacio and team will be happy to discuss any concerns.
    “Then pre-enter”. That’s a great response to a customer.

    At the end of the day, the CMRA members get hosed. The level of safety will be lower for no gain. 3:16 will fail. The scary part is the Cmra will suffer from it as well.

  6. #26
    Administrator Walter Walker's Avatar
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    Michael,

    An honest answer is the best answer to give a customer.

    Saying that 3:16 will fail before anyone ever turns a wheel is a bit premature.

    Saying that the level of safety will be lower before anyone ever turns a wheel is also premature.

    This is not a new concept. This is how Friday practice was done prior to 2017. It worked then and there is no reason to believe that it won’t work now. Will it be different? Of course it will be but to say it won’t work is wrong because history proves that it will.
    Walter Walker
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  7. #27
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    I would like to request that if any 3:16 officials decide to "have a word" with a CMRA racer about their actions on track that a CMRA official be present... Some examples:

    We were at one 3:16 event at Cresson where a few CMRA riders and even a certain MA Twins champion were hunted down in the paddock and chewed out by a 3:16 official who was literally enraged at the racers' "close" passes (they were leaving 6+ feet) or because a track day rider checked up because the racers cut across the other rider's line (the racers were on the race line, the other riders were not and again a large gap was left). And another incident a racer was chastised for being "out of control" running up onto the curbing but they had run onto the curbing to avoid a track day rider who had run them off the racing line and in doing so avoided a crash. It would be good to have a CMRA perspective should anything like that occur.

    That being said, I think 3:16 runs a good organization and we talked to Ignacio about the events that day and they were handled to our satisfaction. And I remember the LSTD days and thought those worked well.
    Sloan Essman # 228
    07 SV650s

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Klesel View Post
    “Then pre-enter”. That’s a great response to a customer.

    At the end of the day, the CMRA members get hosed. The level of safety will be lower for no gain. 3:16 will fail. The scary part is the Cmra will suffer from it as well.

    Michael,
    I personally do not believe the CMRA is a business, it is a club. Which is completely different! My opinion solely, but in 2018 I joined CMRA (and know you have been around since then competing as we have never met). But, as someone who spends 20% of your weekends with the organization, do you not see the CMRA more as family? No one is putting money in their pocket at the end of the day (beside the bare bones staff, who are probably under paid) if there was a profit after an event or annually. Yes, they provide a service to us (similar to a business). But, if CMRA did not provide the service, then who else who? Without driving 10 hours or more one way? I think the problem is that anyone who has been with CMRA for a few years should see the organization as a club, and not a business (family and friends orientated).
    I am not trying to start conflict with you whatsoever. I am just stating that we, (CMRA) as a whole should not publicly bash changes that involve CMRA until an actual issue is present.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Linker View Post
    Michael,
    I personally do not believe the CMRA is a business, it is a club. Which is completely different! My opinion solely, but in 2018 I joined CMRA (and know you have been around since then competing as we have never met). But, as someone who spends 20% of your weekends with the organization, do you not see the CMRA more as family? No one is putting money in their pocket at the end of the day (beside the bare bones staff, who are probably under paid) if there was a profit after an event or annually. Yes, they provide a service to us (similar to a business). But, if CMRA did not provide the service, then who else who? Without driving 10 hours or more one way? I think the problem is that anyone who has been with CMRA for a few years should see the organization as a club, and not a business (family and friends orientated).
    I am not trying to start conflict with you whatsoever. I am just stating that we, (CMRA) as a whole should not publicly bash changes that involve CMRA until an actual issue is present.
    I think most riders in this family feel that loosing our Friday practice and now having to depend on a failed track day organization for track time before a race is an actual issue. The truth is the only reason 3:16 is doing this is because they were in a battle with Ridesmart for track availability and Ridesmart won. Sometimes the truth hurts.

  10. #30
    Hello Everyone,

    We appreciate the feedback and look forward to showing you on track what we are going to do for you and the racing community as a whole. We are indeed limiting the numbers on track to less than we have at our events since the sessions are shorter (30 minutes versus 1 hour)

    Best,
    Ignacio

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