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Emmett,
That is what i figured. I was posting questions we all know the answers to. Is it logical to throw away $25,000 a year with no benifits? Seems to me that money would be well spent on promotion, purses, and equipment.
Cost of staying with CCS-$25k annually
Cost of leaving CCS- free
reducing financial burdens from the club...priceless:)
Emmett,
That is what i figured. I was posting questions we all know the answers to. Is it logical to throw away $25,000 a year with no benifits? Seems to me that money would be well spent on promotion, purses, and equipment.
Cost of staying with CCS-$25k annually
Cost of leaving CCS- free
reducing financial burdens from the club...priceless:)
From real first hand experience, here is what I can tell you about "independents"
OMMRA - Nice Club, had very limited contingency, and a very hard time growing.
WMMRA - Same story. When I was there WMMRA and OMMRA spent a ton of time pissin' in everybody's ear how great they were...
MRA - Bigger than OMMRA and WMMRA, but again does anyone ever hear about the riders from there?
I think everyone thinks "independent" is great, but again, if you think life is good with no national help, then the question I have is, "Are you willing to put your own money up if contingency is lost or not grown?"
CCS DID provide CMRA with exposure in RRW. There were several small articles that featured endurance winners, etc. It was hard to find, but there nonetheless. CCS provided more exposure than any CMRA originated press release.
Let's be real. The majority of riders that make the races weekend/weekout don't participate on this message board heavily, but again, that does not mean you should not take them into consideration. How many of the BBS regulars actually get out there and line it up every race? Very few. Take a look in the mirror, if you are not out there for at least 1/2 or more of the races, you as an individual don't properly represent the 40%-60% of the actual club members that goes out and lays down money for 3 to 4 entries per weekend for a large portion of the season. The numbers may only show 40%-60%, but I have to believe that would show a larger financial impact. These are the racers that need to have a voice in this.
Marcus
Just a note: The following riders represent 30 entries from last weekends races. That is about 5% of the entries. You rarely see these guys on the board, but these are the kind of racers that "make it happen" when registation is gathering up money. You shut guys out like this becuase you don't have enough "exposure" for the club, you better start pumping up those YSR entrie real freakin' fast.
Chris Rankin 5
Mark Delano 6
Phillip Lawliss 4
John Haner 3
John Orchard 4
Zachry Lee 3
Kevin Mays 5
From real first hand experience, here is what I can tell you about "independents"
OMMRA - Nice Club, had very limited contingency, and a very hard time growing.
WMMRA - Same story. When I was there WMMRA and OMMRA spent a ton of time pissin' in everybody's ear how great they were...
MRA - Bigger than OMMRA and WMMRA, but again does anyone ever hear about the riders from there?
I think everyone thinks "independent" is great, but again, if you think life is good with no national help, then the question I have is, "Are you willing to put your own money up if contingency is lost or not grown?"
CCS DID provide CMRA with exposure in RRW. There were several small articles that featured endurance winners, etc. It was hard to find, but there nonetheless. CCS provided more exposure than any CMRA originated press release.
Let's be real. The majority of riders that make the races weekend/weekout don't participate on this message board heavily, but again, that does not mean you should not take them into consideration. How many of the BBS regulars actually get out there and line it up every race? Very few. Take a look in the mirror, if you are not out there for at least 1/2 or more of the races, you as an individual don't properly represent the 40%-60% of the actual club members that goes out and lays down money for 3 to 4 entries per weekend for a large portion of the season. The numbers may only show 40%-60%, but I have to believe that would show a larger financial impact. These are the racers that need to have a voice in this.
Marcus
Just a note: The following riders represent 30 entries from last weekends races. That is about 5% of the entries. You rarely see these guys on the board, but these are the kind of racers that "make it happen" when registation is gathering up money. You shut guys out like this becuase you don't have enough "exposure" for the club, you better start pumping up those YSR entrie real freakin' fast.
Chris Rankin 5
Mark Delano 6
Phillip Lawliss 4
John Haner 3
John Orchard 4
Zachry Lee 3
Kevin Mays 5
My original question still stands.
Are ALL the national F-USA events Co-promoted?
David
My original question still stands.
Are ALL the national F-USA events Co-promoted?
David
All co-promoted?
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Marcus, what about WSMC and AFM? I realise WSMC is kind of lame because they are just one track but still they are large and have much coin going
into their top classes.
I also agree that smaller clubs don't get much exposer but I would argue that most clubs get
small exposer.
MRA? Nicky Wimbaur. Up and coming, several articles have been writen about him, and a certain AMA 250 champ/Mystery camp running
individual has ranted about him in national
media.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not pro - anything at this time. I just want the facts. Do we get
anything from an aliance with either organazation
that we can't get/do ourselves?
The CMRA charter is alot like the constitution
I believe. It doesn't say one way or the other
wether the club should be aligned with a national organazation. It does say the CMRA should promote motorcycle roadracing in the south central region of the United States.
We are and can do that either way.
Your riders list left out people like
Chris Newhouse. He usually enters 5 classes
and the big and small bike endurances. He regularly brings 2 - 4 bikes with him to the track. He's not fast so does that mean he doesn't count? Some people only have one sprint
bike that is competitive for 1 or 2 classes.
They could ride up several for more track time
but their slower speeds would/could put them
in the dangerous position of being backmarkers/in the way. Since they choose to
not be a rolling chicane for the fast guys does
that mean they don't count?
Some people can only afford to race 50's/motards, does that mean they don't count?
Some poeple only can afford in time or money to race a few times a year but are very fast,
(Eric Kancier,Zach Lee) does that mean they don't count? All these people paid the same
liscence fee for a year that the fast guys did.
That is what this question in about. The
entry fee's pay for the race weekend basicly,
the liscence fee's pay for the national
affiliation.
At your 200 member estimate over 10% of the club has voted on the pole and the numbers don't
support a outcry of membership dismay if we were
independant. I know it's not the entire memebership. I know hardly anyone has particapated in this discussion. It doesn't mean
it is illrelavant or that they are for or
against it. It does mean they would rather
see some information before they open their mouths.
Marcus, you are very intellegent but I am still
waiting for good solid arguements that we NEED
to be affiliated. Not that is is politicaly correct(ie: united Nations) but that it is the
right thing to do for the club as a whole.
My arguement is if neither organazation wants to
take the time or effort to propperly represent us
or make it fincialy desirable to be affiliated with them then why should we be?
All co-promoted?
[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]
Marcus, what about WSMC and AFM? I realise WSMC is kind of lame because they are just one track but still they are large and have much coin going
into their top classes.
I also agree that smaller clubs don't get much exposer but I would argue that most clubs get
small exposer.
MRA? Nicky Wimbaur. Up and coming, several articles have been writen about him, and a certain AMA 250 champ/Mystery camp running
individual has ranted about him in national
media.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not pro - anything at this time. I just want the facts. Do we get
anything from an aliance with either organazation
that we can't get/do ourselves?
The CMRA charter is alot like the constitution
I believe. It doesn't say one way or the other
wether the club should be aligned with a national organazation. It does say the CMRA should promote motorcycle roadracing in the south central region of the United States.
We are and can do that either way.
Your riders list left out people like
Chris Newhouse. He usually enters 5 classes
and the big and small bike endurances. He regularly brings 2 - 4 bikes with him to the track. He's not fast so does that mean he doesn't count? Some people only have one sprint
bike that is competitive for 1 or 2 classes.
They could ride up several for more track time
but their slower speeds would/could put them
in the dangerous position of being backmarkers/in the way. Since they choose to
not be a rolling chicane for the fast guys does
that mean they don't count?
Some people can only afford to race 50's/motards, does that mean they don't count?
Some poeple only can afford in time or money to race a few times a year but are very fast,
(Eric Kancier,Zach Lee) does that mean they don't count? All these people paid the same
liscence fee for a year that the fast guys did.
That is what this question in about. The
entry fee's pay for the race weekend basicly,
the liscence fee's pay for the national
affiliation.
At your 200 member estimate over 10% of the club has voted on the pole and the numbers don't
support a outcry of membership dismay if we were
independant. I know it's not the entire memebership. I know hardly anyone has particapated in this discussion. It doesn't mean
it is illrelavant or that they are for or
against it. It does mean they would rather
see some information before they open their mouths.
Marcus, you are very intellegent but I am still
waiting for good solid arguements that we NEED
to be affiliated. Not that is is politicaly correct(ie: united Nations) but that it is the
right thing to do for the club as a whole.
My arguement is if neither organazation wants to
take the time or effort to propperly represent us
or make it fincialy desirable to be affiliated with them then why should we be?
Here is the argument Emmett. This is as basic as it gets (without trying to offend anyone).
Most racers on the BBS are blowhards. They talk a lot of smack, but can't be found at more than 3 or 4 events a year. THAT DOESN'T PAY THE CMRA BILL'S on any consistent basis.
By the way, I wouldn't classify Chris Newhouse in anything but "serious racer" class. Lap times be damned, Chris is out to race. That is why we always see him at the WERA GNF.
There has been, and always will be a core of 40-50 riders that simply race. They don't get on the BBS and blow smoke, they freakin' race. These are the same racers that push 200 of our entries through every weekend. They are very rarely if ever represented well. They would rather race than talk politics. They would rather race against great competition than save $5.00 an entry. I can't express to you what it means when we have something like a WERA national down here and the Vesrah guys or top national experts/amatuers come down here and you get race against them. There are only about 20% of the riders that probably do care, but I also realize that those 20% or the riders can and do represent 50% of the paying entries. They are rarely represented well for the aforementioned reasons.
About the AFM - I have raced at AFM races (in the 80's) when they line up 700+ entries in a single day. IT WAS A ZOO. They had to institute a "3 crashes and your out for the year" rule. Former AMA Formula Extreme Champ Mark Miller almost lost the opportunity for the AFM #1 plate because of this rule in 89 (I think). This is not a knock on being independent, but again, something to think about.
I realize a great many riders will not actually go to Daytona or the GNF. The constant "I just race for fun" or "Those guys have the track dialed in and I will never win" will be heard, but again, "Why did nearly 40 racers go to the GNF when WERA is so lightly attended down here?"
I think it would be intresting to do some demographic research and find out how many race entries each individual rider represents. This is important. We don't need people representing 20% of the entries having 80% of the influence. This will eventually drive the quality of the club down.
On a final note, I think the CMRA needs to understand the "commodity" it owns. The "commodity" it owns are the total annual entries, licenses, and events it holds. This is a negotiating tool. When has the CMRA aggressively "shopped" in the market to not only get the best deal, but challenged the national body with creative business ideas? This is a very elusive concept for most, but how regular business is done every day.
I am not saying WERA, CCS, or independent. I am saying, "Explore the opportunities and be true to who is paying the bills."
Marcus
Here is the argument Emmett. This is as basic as it gets (without trying to offend anyone).
Most racers on the BBS are blowhards. They talk a lot of smack, but can't be found at more than 3 or 4 events a year. THAT DOESN'T PAY THE CMRA BILL'S on any consistent basis.
By the way, I wouldn't classify Chris Newhouse in anything but "serious racer" class. Lap times be damned, Chris is out to race. That is why we always see him at the WERA GNF.
There has been, and always will be a core of 40-50 riders that simply race. They don't get on the BBS and blow smoke, they freakin' race. These are the same racers that push 200 of our entries through every weekend. They are very rarely if ever represented well. They would rather race than talk politics. They would rather race against great competition than save $5.00 an entry. I can't express to you what it means when we have something like a WERA national down here and the Vesrah guys or top national experts/amatuers come down here and you get race against them. There are only about 20% of the riders that probably do care, but I also realize that those 20% or the riders can and do represent 50% of the paying entries. They are rarely represented well for the aforementioned reasons.
About the AFM - I have raced at AFM races (in the 80's) when they line up 700+ entries in a single day. IT WAS A ZOO. They had to institute a "3 crashes and your out for the year" rule. Former AMA Formula Extreme Champ Mark Miller almost lost the opportunity for the AFM #1 plate because of this rule in 89 (I think). This is not a knock on being independent, but again, something to think about.
I realize a great many riders will not actually go to Daytona or the GNF. The constant "I just race for fun" or "Those guys have the track dialed in and I will never win" will be heard, but again, "Why did nearly 40 racers go to the GNF when WERA is so lightly attended down here?"
I think it would be intresting to do some demographic research and find out how many race entries each individual rider represents. This is important. We don't need people representing 20% of the entries having 80% of the influence. This will eventually drive the quality of the club down.
On a final note, I think the CMRA needs to understand the "commodity" it owns. The "commodity" it owns are the total annual entries, licenses, and events it holds. This is a negotiating tool. When has the CMRA aggressively "shopped" in the market to not only get the best deal, but challenged the national body with creative business ideas? This is a very elusive concept for most, but how regular business is done every day.
I am not saying WERA, CCS, or independent. I am saying, "Explore the opportunities and be true to who is paying the bills."
Marcus
I enjoy our membership speaking up, and this is a good venue (ok it's mostly marcus and emmitt)
What if -
The big gun 'national' gnf-roc-whatever was held at TWS at the end of the year with big cash purses?
The big gun 'national' gnf-roc-whatever rotated among tracks so that a 'home club' didn't have any particular advantages?
Doesn't it seem logical that for ANY national based organization that the final event should be somewhat centrally located?
I see some logic in Daytona, it is 'DAYTONA' but while I have never been there it sounds like a horrible track to showcase rider skills as it's all about the horsepower.
I see a little more logic in Road Atlanta, especially for a primarily East coast based organization. The track is nice, but it is definately not centrally located. My one experience there was no fun and I crashed my brains out anyway.
To me, there would be a centrally located track (Hallett would be great if it could accomodate such an event but I think it would need a little more infrastructure improvement to host such a large event) that hosted a wiz bang end of year event.
IF (And I say a big if because I place some value in an affiliation) the CMRA was an independant, that $20k-$30k could be put up as purse money at this final event.
(Just think, on top of the bike manufacture's contingency and all others, there is a $1500 cash purse in EVERY expert class, and something for the amatuers as well)
For those that remember our independant status (I think it was two years) the first year we took the money that would have been spent toward affiliation, and paid it out as a rider's points fund. $20,000 in cash paid out at the banquet.
That would be the benefit of going to an independant status. Take the money we are spending and use it elsewhere. While the club should and must be run as a business, the advantage of a non-profit over a for-profit is that the club only needs to end the year with a meager positive balance. Any money raised in excess of what is required should be distributed among the members in some form.
(This could be an electronic scoring system, cash purses, lowered entry fees, or even all the above)
I enjoy our membership speaking up, and this is a good venue (ok it's mostly marcus and emmitt)
What if -
The big gun 'national' gnf-roc-whatever was held at TWS at the end of the year with big cash purses?
The big gun 'national' gnf-roc-whatever rotated among tracks so that a 'home club' didn't have any particular advantages?
Doesn't it seem logical that for ANY national based organization that the final event should be somewhat centrally located?
I see some logic in Daytona, it is 'DAYTONA' but while I have never been there it sounds like a horrible track to showcase rider skills as it's all about the horsepower.
I see a little more logic in Road Atlanta, especially for a primarily East coast based organization. The track is nice, but it is definately not centrally located. My one experience there was no fun and I crashed my brains out anyway.
To me, there would be a centrally located track (Hallett would be great if it could accomodate such an event but I think it would need a little more infrastructure improvement to host such a large event) that hosted a wiz bang end of year event.
IF (And I say a big if because I place some value in an affiliation) the CMRA was an independant, that $20k-$30k could be put up as purse money at this final event.
(Just think, on top of the bike manufacture's contingency and all others, there is a $1500 cash purse in EVERY expert class, and something for the amatuers as well)
For those that remember our independant status (I think it was two years) the first year we took the money that would have been spent toward affiliation, and paid it out as a rider's points fund. $20,000 in cash paid out at the banquet.
That would be the benefit of going to an independant status. Take the money we are spending and use it elsewhere. While the club should and must be run as a business, the advantage of a non-profit over a for-profit is that the club only needs to end the year with a meager positive balance. Any money raised in excess of what is required should be distributed among the members in some form.
(This could be an electronic scoring system, cash purses, lowered entry fees, or even all the above)
Hey Bryan,
That is what I meant by leaveraging the commoditized value of what the club has. Has CMRA (which represents over 5K annual entries, which I think is 1/3 of the CCS total "claim") leveraged this as a negotiating tool? I believe the last thing we need is "Another Big Race" in this country. In my opinion we need to proactively work within the existing infrastructure to promote growth rather that optically dilute the product itself.
Marcus
Hey Bryan,
That is what I meant by leaveraging the commoditized value of what the club has. Has CMRA (which represents over 5K annual entries, which I think is 1/3 of the CCS total "claim") leveraged this as a negotiating tool? I believe the last thing we need is "Another Big Race" in this country. In my opinion we need to proactively work within the existing infrastructure to promote growth rather that optically dilute the product itself.
Marcus
Jesus Marcus, since I will only race minis and motard this year and will hit only about 80% of the races, I fall into that OTHER 50% of the club that just lurks on this BBS. Hence, I don't count.
Sometimes the things you say are so...
Never mind.
Jesus Marcus, since I will only race minis and motard this year and will hit only about 80% of the races, I fall into that OTHER 50% of the club that just lurks on this BBS. Hence, I don't count.
Sometimes the things you say are so...
Never mind.
I'm reading a lot of words, but not a lot of content. What is the true benefit for the average racer of being affiliated w/CCS?
Bottom line it...
I'm reading a lot of words, but not a lot of content. What is the true benefit for the average racer of being affiliated w/CCS?
Bottom line it...
Hey Chris,Quote:Originally posted by Chris Thomas:
Jesus Marcus, since I will only race minis and motard this year and will hit only about 80% of the races, I fall into that OTHER 50% of the club that just lurks on this BBS. Hence, I don't count.
Sometimes the things you say are so...
Never mind.
If you want to get offended, GO FOR IT. The point I was making was, "Let's identify who is paying the bills" rather than a BBS referendum that is a not a neccessarily accurate view of the club demographics.
Personally, I don't spend much time thinking about mini's. I know they are fun, but I just haven't really been into "that scene". I know the mini's push money through the club, so obviously there should be representation, but again, at some point, someone who has some long term experience has to step up to the plate and answer, "Is this is what is best for motorcycle roadracing in the south central region?"
Marcus
Hey Chris,Quote:Originally posted by Chris Thomas:
Jesus Marcus, since I will only race minis and motard this year and will hit only about 80% of the races, I fall into that OTHER 50% of the club that just lurks on this BBS. Hence, I don't count.
Sometimes the things you say are so...
Never mind.
If you want to get offended, GO FOR IT. The point I was making was, "Let's identify who is paying the bills" rather than a BBS referendum that is a not a neccessarily accurate view of the club demographics.
Personally, I don't spend much time thinking about mini's. I know they are fun, but I just haven't really been into "that scene". I know the mini's push money through the club, so obviously there should be representation, but again, at some point, someone who has some long term experience has to step up to the plate and answer, "Is this is what is best for motorcycle roadracing in the south central region?"
Marcus
"I don't think much about the mini's, they are fun" ok, maybe you should also think of them. yeah we only have 2 or 3 sprints a weekend that limits your "income for the club". Look at how many teams show up for the 6-hour endurance at oak hill. we all pay license and endurance fees too. some of us race this class simply cause we can't afford to run big bikes. what you spend on one set of tires is my fuel budget for the whole year. it is also a class for up and coming riders, Tyler Macdonald, Ryan Andrews, and some kid named Will who i don't even know his last name. that is future income if you want to keep referring to business sense. and I will make every race this year and contribute to the club how i can even though i dont have as many entries as some others do so i am not an individual just talking smack on this board. You have never answered the original question in plain english. what are the pros and cons of being with either establishment or being independent? just like in debate in school. lets see some research and facts from all sides instead of big words and personal egos and putting other clubs down. and talk about this at a race weekend so everyone, not just the ones talking smack on this board, can be a part of this. not trying to make enemies, just want the plain and simple facts of the whole thing.
"I don't think much about the mini's, they are fun" ok, maybe you should also think of them. yeah we only have 2 or 3 sprints a weekend that limits your "income for the club". Look at how many teams show up for the 6-hour endurance at oak hill. we all pay license and endurance fees too. some of us race this class simply cause we can't afford to run big bikes. what you spend on one set of tires is my fuel budget for the whole year. it is also a class for up and coming riders, Tyler Macdonald, Ryan Andrews, and some kid named Will who i don't even know his last name. that is future income if you want to keep referring to business sense. and I will make every race this year and contribute to the club how i can even though i dont have as many entries as some others do so i am not an individual just talking smack on this board. You have never answered the original question in plain english. what are the pros and cons of being with either establishment or being independent? just like in debate in school. lets see some research and facts from all sides instead of big words and personal egos and putting other clubs down. and talk about this at a race weekend so everyone, not just the ones talking smack on this board, can be a part of this. not trying to make enemies, just want the plain and simple facts of the whole thing.
Marcus, I completely disagree with your argument about 5% of the riders 'making it happen' for the club....->
"Just a note: The following riders represent 30 entries from last weekends races. That is about 5% of the entries. You rarely see these guys on the board, but these are the kind of racers that "make it happen" when registation is gathering up money. You shut guys out like this becuase you don't have enough "exposure" for the club, you better start pumping up those YSR entrie real freakin' fast.
Chris Rankin 5
Mark Delano 6
Phillip Lawliss 4
John Haner 3
John Orchard 4
Zachry Lee 3
Kevin Mays 5"
Those riders are also the ones taking home the money. Not just contingency, but the cash purses the CMRA puts up, along with our sponsors. So while they may pay some entry fees, they are also taking some of it back home with them.
Also consider that the third entry only costs $30.
One rider entering 6 races = $230 (with no discounts for class championship or take home from cash purse)
Six riders entering 6 races = $390
The riders who "make it happen" for the CMRA are the other 95%.
This club is about the entire 100%. We provide classes for everyone, and try and give the average weekend warrior some classes and incentive to come and race.
We provide cash purses, and acquire sponsors so that the best of the best can come and play also.
It would be easy to try and turn our club into a pure profit machine. Eliminate all classes with less than 8 entries per event. Make a larger spectacle out of the premier races, possible even extend them by a couple of laps. Remove all YSR classes and the new JR Motard.
But that is absolutely NOT what the CMRA is about. I will go down fighting for the weekend warriors. Those of us not born with a silver spoon in our mouth who have to balance safety and costs. (Can I make that tire last one more race or do I have to buy a new set now?)
Even some of our CMRA 'superstars' who scrounge up money by selling used parts to get them to the next money paying venue are what this club is about.
It's about coming out and having fun.
Events like the Motard, Jr Motard, Vintage, and mini endurance are what the CMRA is about.
All of this balanced around the big events like the largest and most succesful endurance series in the country, year after year is what the CMRA is about.
Damn I ramble...see yall
Marcus, I completely disagree with your argument about 5% of the riders 'making it happen' for the club....->
"Just a note: The following riders represent 30 entries from last weekends races. That is about 5% of the entries. You rarely see these guys on the board, but these are the kind of racers that "make it happen" when registation is gathering up money. You shut guys out like this becuase you don't have enough "exposure" for the club, you better start pumping up those YSR entrie real freakin' fast.
Chris Rankin 5
Mark Delano 6
Phillip Lawliss 4
John Haner 3
John Orchard 4
Zachry Lee 3
Kevin Mays 5"
Those riders are also the ones taking home the money. Not just contingency, but the cash purses the CMRA puts up, along with our sponsors. So while they may pay some entry fees, they are also taking some of it back home with them.
Also consider that the third entry only costs $30.
One rider entering 6 races = $230 (with no discounts for class championship or take home from cash purse)
Six riders entering 6 races = $390
The riders who "make it happen" for the CMRA are the other 95%.
This club is about the entire 100%. We provide classes for everyone, and try and give the average weekend warrior some classes and incentive to come and race.
We provide cash purses, and acquire sponsors so that the best of the best can come and play also.
It would be easy to try and turn our club into a pure profit machine. Eliminate all classes with less than 8 entries per event. Make a larger spectacle out of the premier races, possible even extend them by a couple of laps. Remove all YSR classes and the new JR Motard.
But that is absolutely NOT what the CMRA is about. I will go down fighting for the weekend warriors. Those of us not born with a silver spoon in our mouth who have to balance safety and costs. (Can I make that tire last one more race or do I have to buy a new set now?)
Even some of our CMRA 'superstars' who scrounge up money by selling used parts to get them to the next money paying venue are what this club is about.
It's about coming out and having fun.
Events like the Motard, Jr Motard, Vintage, and mini endurance are what the CMRA is about.
All of this balanced around the big events like the largest and most succesful endurance series in the country, year after year is what the CMRA is about.
Damn I ramble...see yall
Marcus,
No offense, but if you identify the users of the BBS as a group other than the one which would benefit the most from a potential realignment by the CMRA of its sanctioning relationship, why are you going on and on and ON about this subject on the BBS. When you advise identifying leveraging strengths, etc, to whom are you speaking? Surely you and I have spoken often enough on this subject to know that the BOD has been working on these issues for sometime. I challenge you or anyone else to analyze this situation more completely than is being done. To have explored any more options and alternative ideas than we have. To have assembled proformas and budgets that take the various options into consideration in regards as to how they might impact the financial future of the organization. And most importantly, how the proposals might effect our members, fast, slow, ambitious and otherwise. If the time had been right to present all of this to the membership, we would have already done so. As you should know perhaps better than most, there are ongoing discussions and other fluid situations involved that must be resolved before a prudent case can be made and presented to the CMRA's membership.
As far as the promotion of our racers to opportunities on a level higher than club racing, I could point to the five CMRA racers who have been named for the second year to the RRWorld "Young Guns" roster. I could remind you of the publicity, including photos of our racers who participate in the Horizion Award races. I could point to Danny Eslick who has earned a ride with the Suzuki factory. Seeing Ty Howard, Kevin Pate, Heath Small and John Haner, along with James Comption on the AMA grids is enough for me to realize that talent rises to the top regardless of affiliation. None of these racers have a ride due to a sanctioning body affiliation. In this vein, I totally disagree that CCS hurts (or helps) our cause. I'd say the same about any other sanctioning body on the club level. Solid, top notch competition and good tracks both of which the CMRA provides in abundance count the most.
Publicity is the key ingredient to getting this news out. Here is where the CMRA has been lacking. To solve this situaation, we have just hired a newletter writter/editor/publisher who is well versed in the field (currently providing info to RRWorld and C News). We have commissioned a PR package from a professional advertising agency run by a CMRA member (at no cost to the club, I might add). We will solve the PR deficency on our own, thank you very much.
I appreciate all of the open attitudes expressed in this thread. I just want to make the point that there is not a single authority on this subject contrary to the massive number postings. These issues have long-term ramifications and deserve a careful, non-biased review. Which they are certainly receiving. The conclusions will be presented to all of the CMRA membership.
Just my 2 cents. (I was serious about the no offense comment).
Brooks
PS, I also take issue with the observation, "the last thing we need is another big race". Really?
Can anyone tell me who is the fastest club racer, by class in the country? Prove it. Until you can, an event that provides the opportunity for the best racers in the country to compete against each other is what "big race" were missing. (The current situation is analogous to the mythical college football national champion). Don't think that this situation is not being worked on at this moment.
Marcus,
No offense, but if you identify the users of the BBS as a group other than the one which would benefit the most from a potential realignment by the CMRA of its sanctioning relationship, why are you going on and on and ON about this subject on the BBS. When you advise identifying leveraging strengths, etc, to whom are you speaking? Surely you and I have spoken often enough on this subject to know that the BOD has been working on these issues for sometime. I challenge you or anyone else to analyze this situation more completely than is being done. To have explored any more options and alternative ideas than we have. To have assembled proformas and budgets that take the various options into consideration in regards as to how they might impact the financial future of the organization. And most importantly, how the proposals might effect our members, fast, slow, ambitious and otherwise. If the time had been right to present all of this to the membership, we would have already done so. As you should know perhaps better than most, there are ongoing discussions and other fluid situations involved that must be resolved before a prudent case can be made and presented to the CMRA's membership.
As far as the promotion of our racers to opportunities on a level higher than club racing, I could point to the five CMRA racers who have been named for the second year to the RRWorld "Young Guns" roster. I could remind you of the publicity, including photos of our racers who participate in the Horizion Award races. I could point to Danny Eslick who has earned a ride with the Suzuki factory. Seeing Ty Howard, Kevin Pate, Heath Small and John Haner, along with James Comption on the AMA grids is enough for me to realize that talent rises to the top regardless of affiliation. None of these racers have a ride due to a sanctioning body affiliation. In this vein, I totally disagree that CCS hurts (or helps) our cause. I'd say the same about any other sanctioning body on the club level. Solid, top notch competition and good tracks both of which the CMRA provides in abundance count the most.
Publicity is the key ingredient to getting this news out. Here is where the CMRA has been lacking. To solve this situaation, we have just hired a newletter writter/editor/publisher who is well versed in the field (currently providing info to RRWorld and C News). We have commissioned a PR package from a professional advertising agency run by a CMRA member (at no cost to the club, I might add). We will solve the PR deficency on our own, thank you very much.
I appreciate all of the open attitudes expressed in this thread. I just want to make the point that there is not a single authority on this subject contrary to the massive number postings. These issues have long-term ramifications and deserve a careful, non-biased review. Which they are certainly receiving. The conclusions will be presented to all of the CMRA membership.
Just my 2 cents. (I was serious about the no offense comment).
Brooks
PS, I also take issue with the observation, "the last thing we need is another big race". Really?
Can anyone tell me who is the fastest club racer, by class in the country? Prove it. Until you can, an event that provides the opportunity for the best racers in the country to compete against each other is what "big race" were missing. (The current situation is analogous to the mythical college football national champion). Don't think that this situation is not being worked on at this moment.
Rob and Everyone else,
I don't believe there is a "black and white" answer for this question. If there was, the question would have surely been answered by now.
- If you go independent, you don't know the impact on contingency and programs for several years. Again, the one year (since I have been in the club) we enjoyed legacy status. There is not an example or situation in the last 15 years that illustrates a pro or con.
- Yes, insurance, etc. can be cheaper through nationally negotiated deals, but as it has been mentioned is it worth it?
My main concern is the high turn-over in this sport does not promote mature forward looking decisions necessarily. Yes we have an elected BOD with several members that represent the different facets of racing. The last time the CMRA did a split, it was not a democratic process, the board made a decision and it was done. I was chucked out of the meeting after 5 minutes with no one (BOD Members) wanting to discuss any of the compelling reasons. We can't let this happen again. I made the point that a BBS referendum is not accurate. I also brought up specific examples of how racers disproportionately get representation.
In answer to everyone's question, there is no answer. NO ONE KNOWS what the real impact of being an independent means. Any immediate impact can (and will be offset by loss/gain of services down the road). No one club that I know of in the last 15 years has split away and stayed independent.
So I guess to more accurately combine my points a good process would be to:
1) Analyze the demographics of entries
2) Analyze the club charter - Things to think about in my mind:
a) Are there classes that are not heavily attended buy a key introduction for racing (esp. Kids)?
b) Are there classes that are heavily attended, but are problematic to administer.
c) What is ROI for mini and big bike endurance/sprint races.
d) What is in the best interest for motorcycle racing on a long term basis both regionally and nationally.
That is my final egotistical answer. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Marcus
Rob and Everyone else,
I don't believe there is a "black and white" answer for this question. If there was, the question would have surely been answered by now.
- If you go independent, you don't know the impact on contingency and programs for several years. Again, the one year (since I have been in the club) we enjoyed legacy status. There is not an example or situation in the last 15 years that illustrates a pro or con.
- Yes, insurance, etc. can be cheaper through nationally negotiated deals, but as it has been mentioned is it worth it?
My main concern is the high turn-over in this sport does not promote mature forward looking decisions necessarily. Yes we have an elected BOD with several members that represent the different facets of racing. The last time the CMRA did a split, it was not a democratic process, the board made a decision and it was done. I was chucked out of the meeting after 5 minutes with no one (BOD Members) wanting to discuss any of the compelling reasons. We can't let this happen again. I made the point that a BBS referendum is not accurate. I also brought up specific examples of how racers disproportionately get representation.
In answer to everyone's question, there is no answer. NO ONE KNOWS what the real impact of being an independent means. Any immediate impact can (and will be offset by loss/gain of services down the road). No one club that I know of in the last 15 years has split away and stayed independent.
So I guess to more accurately combine my points a good process would be to:
1) Analyze the demographics of entries
2) Analyze the club charter - Things to think about in my mind:
a) Are there classes that are not heavily attended buy a key introduction for racing (esp. Kids)?
b) Are there classes that are heavily attended, but are problematic to administer.
c) What is ROI for mini and big bike endurance/sprint races.
d) What is in the best interest for motorcycle racing on a long term basis both regionally and nationally.
That is my final egotistical answer. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Marcus
Well, I was going to shut up. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]Quote:Originally posted by Brooks Gremmels:
Marcus,
No offense, but if you identify the users of the BBS as a group other than the one which would benefit the most from a potential realignment by the CMRA of its sanctioning relationship, why are you going on and on and ON about this subject on the BBS. When you advise identifying leveraging strengths, etc, to whom are you speaking? Surely you and I have spoken often enough on this subject to know that the BOD has been working on these issues for sometime.
Brooks, the point I was making was about a BBS referendum vs. actual cold hard facts. I think there are several examples of a popular BBS idea where "everyone will come" and we get no reciprol turnout compared to BBS opinion.
I haven't really said too much that would sway my opinion or anyone else's. I don't believe I am trying to sell any idea other than I am concerned being "independent" is a great idea until you probably are...
I am focused throughout my discussions on a daily basis that not only the CMRA BOD realize the commodity that can be leveraged, but also the body does. I mean really, how many racers spend time in the pits analyzing the strength in entries against the ability to leverage positions with national sanctioning bodies. I am implying CMRA has the strength to make as many demands as concessions when negotiating. It is the Wal-Mart model. Who set's the prices Wal-Mart pays/charges? Wal-Mart does...not the manufacturer's. I believe the philosophy that goes into this negotiation model is very applicable to the CMRA's position. There is a huge opportunity to not only positively affect the regions success, but because of the unique strength of the CMRA, it can also guide national success. You and others may say that is not CMRA's responsibility, but I say it is. We (as a whole in the industry) have muddled our sport to inadequate mediocrity through a tremendous amount of ineffective effort. People go to McDonald's becuase they can get the same Big Mac anywhere. I believe that if we in the roadracing community do not align ourselves into a consistent product, then our sport will not grow as much as it deserves to. Yeah, you can run a big year end club race. It may be successful, but I firmly believe you are choosing to win a battle by sacrificing the war.
With a critical discussion in (and outside) this forum, If the membership as a whole doesn't understand this impact the wrong decision could be made...again. We will know if a decision is made and members are being told to leave the board meeting after 3 or 4 minutes.
Marcus
Well, I was going to shut up. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]Quote:Originally posted by Brooks Gremmels:
Marcus,
No offense, but if you identify the users of the BBS as a group other than the one which would benefit the most from a potential realignment by the CMRA of its sanctioning relationship, why are you going on and on and ON about this subject on the BBS. When you advise identifying leveraging strengths, etc, to whom are you speaking? Surely you and I have spoken often enough on this subject to know that the BOD has been working on these issues for sometime.
Brooks, the point I was making was about a BBS referendum vs. actual cold hard facts. I think there are several examples of a popular BBS idea where "everyone will come" and we get no reciprol turnout compared to BBS opinion.
I haven't really said too much that would sway my opinion or anyone else's. I don't believe I am trying to sell any idea other than I am concerned being "independent" is a great idea until you probably are...
I am focused throughout my discussions on a daily basis that not only the CMRA BOD realize the commodity that can be leveraged, but also the body does. I mean really, how many racers spend time in the pits analyzing the strength in entries against the ability to leverage positions with national sanctioning bodies. I am implying CMRA has the strength to make as many demands as concessions when negotiating. It is the Wal-Mart model. Who set's the prices Wal-Mart pays/charges? Wal-Mart does...not the manufacturer's. I believe the philosophy that goes into this negotiation model is very applicable to the CMRA's position. There is a huge opportunity to not only positively affect the regions success, but because of the unique strength of the CMRA, it can also guide national success. You and others may say that is not CMRA's responsibility, but I say it is. We (as a whole in the industry) have muddled our sport to inadequate mediocrity through a tremendous amount of ineffective effort. People go to McDonald's becuase they can get the same Big Mac anywhere. I believe that if we in the roadracing community do not align ourselves into a consistent product, then our sport will not grow as much as it deserves to. Yeah, you can run a big year end club race. It may be successful, but I firmly believe you are choosing to win a battle by sacrificing the war.
With a critical discussion in (and outside) this forum, If the membership as a whole doesn't understand this impact the wrong decision could be made...again. We will know if a decision is made and members are being told to leave the board meeting after 3 or 4 minutes.
Marcus
"My main concern is the high turn-over in this sport does not promote mature forward looking decisions necessarily. Yes we have an elected BOD with several members that represent the different facets of racing. The last time the CMRA did a split, it was not a democratic process, the board made a decision and it was done. I was chucked out of the meeting after 5 minutes with no one (BOD Members) wanting to discuss any of the compelling reasons. We can't let this happen again. I made the point that a BBS referendum is not accurate. I also brought up specific examples of how racers disproportionately get representation. "
Actually, for two years in a row a survey was passed out. The decision to split was made from the results of that survey. The questions regarding splitting from WERA were inside the survey, but not highlighted in such a way as to alert the affiliate.
I can't speak for the BoD at the time because I was not on it, but I recall the survey.
"My main concern is the high turn-over in this sport does not promote mature forward looking decisions necessarily. Yes we have an elected BOD with several members that represent the different facets of racing. The last time the CMRA did a split, it was not a democratic process, the board made a decision and it was done. I was chucked out of the meeting after 5 minutes with no one (BOD Members) wanting to discuss any of the compelling reasons. We can't let this happen again. I made the point that a BBS referendum is not accurate. I also brought up specific examples of how racers disproportionately get representation. "
Actually, for two years in a row a survey was passed out. The decision to split was made from the results of that survey. The questions regarding splitting from WERA were inside the survey, but not highlighted in such a way as to alert the affiliate.
I can't speak for the BoD at the time because I was not on it, but I recall the survey.
CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.
Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...
The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.
While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.
CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA.
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back.
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.
Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.
Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.
Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.
If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.
a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.
CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.
Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...
The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.
While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.
CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA.
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back.
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.
Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.
Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.
Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.
If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.
a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.
Yes CCS did not do that I approached Brooks about that as it was mentioned that he wanted to sponsor a sprint class but real goal of club was to get endurance sponsor, Brooks instantly said he would do it, BOTH sprint and endurance! incredible support of the local regional racer/clubQuote:Originally posted by Mark Novak:
CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.
Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...
The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.
While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.
CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.actually it was Blockworks and CCS did support it with logistics, I guess you could say that I introduced CMRA to CCS along with the 2000 CMRA BOD/officialsQuote:
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA.maybe not idea of tire, but a higher level than other clubs recieve and more classes; may, may not have recieved as much as current but that is a what if questionQuote:
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back.most number of tracks available, most contingency sponsors, cheaper insurance, quick/correct contingency filing, most classes, assurance of uniform race day events by having all regions' officials meet and arrange daily race procedures (aka the Big Mac),year end final event open to all competitors, and that is just a few things I can think of vs independenceQuote:
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.
Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.depends on what the value you place on certain things like year end event, access to tracks nationwide, national promotion, direct access to Pro races(exact rules regionally and nationally), obtaining contingecy, then for the things that have real "value" like insurance ~1000 a weekend savings vs obtaining independently (but that value is skewed as CCS insurance provides more coverage earlier [less out of pocket vs medical expenses] and is with higher rated insurance company than we were with (in fact some tracks will no longer accept old insurance company since it was derated, and rates were 2001 compared to 2002 [think post9/11]), contingency program record keeping/filing, rulebooks, mailing expenses, licences, posters, computer scoring system, access to buy at group rates, now not all things are used by the club so do you asess a value to those products? so some is hard numbers, some is potential and some is less headache for club. so it really is not black and white it is a shade of gray that we must decide if that gray provides us with enough to be worth while expenseQuote:
Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.
Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.And just for info sake the BOD of 99 season will surely admit the spending of the membership savings in points fund and year end "Great America Shootout" was a little over the cost savings as license production, contingency handling, and other expenses saw that year end at a loss that took two years to recover from. Plus rulebook did not really contain "rules" it was classes and the class stucture was good for our region (but for a national series?), but there were still classes that had fewer than 5 entries average a weekend and they were eliminated (vintage and three levels of classic) when CMRA joined CCS. And another thing to think about is the number of people that come to race with CMRA(~100 riders from out of region last year) because it is a CCS member and they do not have to purchase another license to come here. License fee did increase $25/yr/rider when we joined CCS so comparsion of what is sent to CCS for membership vs what would be saved do we compare at 100CCS license to 100cmra license or will license drop back to 75 for independent license?(100 for 4 track regional club is excessive and could hurt membership IMO) in which case the ~450 CMRA riders(50% of license fee goes to CCS) puts about 22.5k towards CCS a year but would give CMRA 11250 as independent(added membership money with $75license) so is it worth 11k? yes just in insurance savings but we pay almost 23k see this is a bunch of what ifs but just a broad overview of what is obtained/spentQuote:
If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.
a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.
Mark aka couch racer [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I used your post to give as much info as I have learned on this issue from the point we decided to join CCS to today as it asked the most straight questions adn hit what I thought were the most important points but also tried to answer some of the questions raised by Marcus and Emmett as I knew them.
Yes CCS did not do that I approached Brooks about that as it was mentioned that he wanted to sponsor a sprint class but real goal of club was to get endurance sponsor, Brooks instantly said he would do it, BOTH sprint and endurance! incredible support of the local regional racer/clubQuote:Originally posted by Mark Novak:
CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.
Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...
The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.
While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.
CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.actually it was Blockworks and CCS did support it with logistics, I guess you could say that I introduced CMRA to CCS along with the 2000 CMRA BOD/officialsQuote:
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA.maybe not idea of tire, but a higher level than other clubs recieve and more classes; may, may not have recieved as much as current but that is a what if questionQuote:
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back.most number of tracks available, most contingency sponsors, cheaper insurance, quick/correct contingency filing, most classes, assurance of uniform race day events by having all regions' officials meet and arrange daily race procedures (aka the Big Mac),year end final event open to all competitors, and that is just a few things I can think of vs independenceQuote:
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.
Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.depends on what the value you place on certain things like year end event, access to tracks nationwide, national promotion, direct access to Pro races(exact rules regionally and nationally), obtaining contingecy, then for the things that have real "value" like insurance ~1000 a weekend savings vs obtaining independently (but that value is skewed as CCS insurance provides more coverage earlier [less out of pocket vs medical expenses] and is with higher rated insurance company than we were with (in fact some tracks will no longer accept old insurance company since it was derated, and rates were 2001 compared to 2002 [think post9/11]), contingency program record keeping/filing, rulebooks, mailing expenses, licences, posters, computer scoring system, access to buy at group rates, now not all things are used by the club so do you asess a value to those products? so some is hard numbers, some is potential and some is less headache for club. so it really is not black and white it is a shade of gray that we must decide if that gray provides us with enough to be worth while expenseQuote:
Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.
Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.And just for info sake the BOD of 99 season will surely admit the spending of the membership savings in points fund and year end "Great America Shootout" was a little over the cost savings as license production, contingency handling, and other expenses saw that year end at a loss that took two years to recover from. Plus rulebook did not really contain "rules" it was classes and the class stucture was good for our region (but for a national series?), but there were still classes that had fewer than 5 entries average a weekend and they were eliminated (vintage and three levels of classic) when CMRA joined CCS. And another thing to think about is the number of people that come to race with CMRA(~100 riders from out of region last year) because it is a CCS member and they do not have to purchase another license to come here. License fee did increase $25/yr/rider when we joined CCS so comparsion of what is sent to CCS for membership vs what would be saved do we compare at 100CCS license to 100cmra license or will license drop back to 75 for independent license?(100 for 4 track regional club is excessive and could hurt membership IMO) in which case the ~450 CMRA riders(50% of license fee goes to CCS) puts about 22.5k towards CCS a year but would give CMRA 11250 as independent(added membership money with $75license) so is it worth 11k? yes just in insurance savings but we pay almost 23k see this is a bunch of what ifs but just a broad overview of what is obtained/spentQuote:
If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.
a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.
Mark aka couch racer [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I used your post to give as much info as I have learned on this issue from the point we decided to join CCS to today as it asked the most straight questions adn hit what I thought were the most important points but also tried to answer some of the questions raised by Marcus and Emmett as I knew them.
OWW! My brain is starting to hurt.
OWW! My brain is starting to hurt.
Thanks for all the info Eric. I appreciate the time you took to get it out there.
and I can no longer be called couch racer,I have already been out once this year (track day, but its a start), and we are in the process of getting a motor squared for the six hour next month. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] gifford will be so proud. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Time will tell on the affiliation, I'll show up regardless of which way it goes. I trust the BOD to do what is best for every racer.
Thanks for all the info Eric. I appreciate the time you took to get it out there.
and I can no longer be called couch racer,I have already been out once this year (track day, but its a start), and we are in the process of getting a motor squared for the six hour next month. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] gifford will be so proud. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Time will tell on the affiliation, I'll show up regardless of which way it goes. I trust the BOD to do what is best for every racer.
So it is going to be Roshambo or not? [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]Quote:Originally posted by Mark Novak:
Thanks for all the info Eric. I appreciate the time you took to get it out there.
and I can no longer be called couch racer,I have already been out once this year (track day, but its a start), and we are in the process of getting a motor squared for the six hour next month. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] gifford will be so proud. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Time will tell on the affiliation, I'll show up regardless of which way it goes. I trust the BOD to do what is best for every racer.
So it is going to be Roshambo or not? [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]Quote:Originally posted by Mark Novak:
Thanks for all the info Eric. I appreciate the time you took to get it out there.
and I can no longer be called couch racer,I have already been out once this year (track day, but its a start), and we are in the process of getting a motor squared for the six hour next month. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] gifford will be so proud. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Time will tell on the affiliation, I'll show up regardless of which way it goes. I trust the BOD to do what is best for every racer.
eric, thanks for the straight forward answers
marcus, so this type thing is kinda like the stock market huh? you won't know what you have for several years but it could be promising? I'm glad I'm not on the BOD to make any decisions like this. In the end I guess our chosen ones will do what is best for us..... either way we will be there to race and have a good time. we have one of the best series there is, i personally think ,and I'll be in it till the end along with anyone else i can get to join me in the fun and competition the cmra provides. Maybe one day I'll be where you are marcus and enjoy the competition at that level.
eric, thanks for the straight forward answers
marcus, so this type thing is kinda like the stock market huh? you won't know what you have for several years but it could be promising? I'm glad I'm not on the BOD to make any decisions like this. In the end I guess our chosen ones will do what is best for us..... either way we will be there to race and have a good time. we have one of the best series there is, i personally think ,and I'll be in it till the end along with anyone else i can get to join me in the fun and competition the cmra provides. Maybe one day I'll be where you are marcus and enjoy the competition at that level.
:DQuote:Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
So it is going to be Roshambo or not? [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [/QB]
Nah, Roshambo is retired before it ever started. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
We are Deadhorse this year. Myself, Jack Giescke, and Frank Springett will be running the mini's for the most part this year, and if money is there we'll be rolling chicanes in the endurance.
:DQuote:Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
So it is going to be Roshambo or not? [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [/QB]
Nah, Roshambo is retired before it ever started. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
We are Deadhorse this year. Myself, Jack Giescke, and Frank Springett will be running the mini's for the most part this year, and if money is there we'll be rolling chicanes in the endurance.
But Brooks... we all know that BBS users are far superior to the non-BBS users. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] After all we at least figured out how to turn on these devil, number crunching machines. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] I for one will show up either way. When I can, anyways... let the flames continue as I digress.Quote:Originally posted by Brooks Gremmels:
Marcus,
No offense, but if you identify the users of the BBS as a group other than the one which would benefit ......
Scott
But Brooks... we all know that BBS users are far superior to the non-BBS users. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] After all we at least figured out how to turn on these devil, number crunching machines. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] I for one will show up either way. When I can, anyways... let the flames continue as I digress.Quote:Originally posted by Brooks Gremmels:
Marcus,
No offense, but if you identify the users of the BBS as a group other than the one which would benefit ......
Scott
Whew, this thread got popular since yesterday! Haven't read past page two, but I just wanted to say to Ty that I haven't been in serious endurance racing in a while and you have good point there. The money in endurance can help to keep costs down for more than first place. But, I sprint minis and at best 125s and 125 doesn't have squat for contingencies. I was supposed to have won money at a WERA national a few years ago, never saw squat of it. That's not unusual. Hell, if and when I ever place well enough in 125 even when there are contingencies, there's usually not enough entries to qualify, LOL! It takes WAY more money in 125 to actually have a winning motorcycle for a fat, old guy than any contingency could help pay for, so I got more serious about minis. They're cheaper, a lot cheaper, though I'm beginning to wonder about my sanity with my latest XR120 project. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
In sprints, all the contingencies are with 600, the SV classes, the big bikes. 125 don't get squat. Most other classes don't get squat. The SV is probably the most cost effective if you really want contingencies, but I'll pass. I'm what Marcus calls a "tweener" I guess. I'm not that serious about it, like to win when I can, but I'm not willing to spend my retirement on it. I think I am about your average sprinting expert in CMRA. I'm not a fast guy, not a novice, not in it for glory (get real, I'm 50 years old), but I just so love the sport I just can't give it up until I can no longer swing a leg. I've been doing it off and on my whole adult life and because I truly love it. Sure ain't for the money!!!!! So, I've found the way I've done it to be more cost effective and that doesn't include contingencies because there are none in my classes.
However, thank you Ty for shedding light on another angle of it. And, too, there are those unlike me that aren't thrilled by minis or 125s, like horsepower, and for them the cost is there and if they can get something back out of it, well, yeah, I can certainly understand that. So, I suppose for those guys contingencies ARE important even in sprints, at least if they are fast enough to cash in on them once in a while. I'm thinking of guys like Gifford, Falt, and such. But, then, didn't I say the top guys before? Hmm. Well, anyway, they do count in this debate. I don't often shape my opinions around big bike endurance, either, cause I don't run it much. But, that is a very important venue for CMRA and your points there are well taken.
Whew, this thread got popular since yesterday! Haven't read past page two, but I just wanted to say to Ty that I haven't been in serious endurance racing in a while and you have good point there. The money in endurance can help to keep costs down for more than first place. But, I sprint minis and at best 125s and 125 doesn't have squat for contingencies. I was supposed to have won money at a WERA national a few years ago, never saw squat of it. That's not unusual. Hell, if and when I ever place well enough in 125 even when there are contingencies, there's usually not enough entries to qualify, LOL! It takes WAY more money in 125 to actually have a winning motorcycle for a fat, old guy than any contingency could help pay for, so I got more serious about minis. They're cheaper, a lot cheaper, though I'm beginning to wonder about my sanity with my latest XR120 project. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
In sprints, all the contingencies are with 600, the SV classes, the big bikes. 125 don't get squat. Most other classes don't get squat. The SV is probably the most cost effective if you really want contingencies, but I'll pass. I'm what Marcus calls a "tweener" I guess. I'm not that serious about it, like to win when I can, but I'm not willing to spend my retirement on it. I think I am about your average sprinting expert in CMRA. I'm not a fast guy, not a novice, not in it for glory (get real, I'm 50 years old), but I just so love the sport I just can't give it up until I can no longer swing a leg. I've been doing it off and on my whole adult life and because I truly love it. Sure ain't for the money!!!!! So, I've found the way I've done it to be more cost effective and that doesn't include contingencies because there are none in my classes.
However, thank you Ty for shedding light on another angle of it. And, too, there are those unlike me that aren't thrilled by minis or 125s, like horsepower, and for them the cost is there and if they can get something back out of it, well, yeah, I can certainly understand that. So, I suppose for those guys contingencies ARE important even in sprints, at least if they are fast enough to cash in on them once in a while. I'm thinking of guys like Gifford, Falt, and such. But, then, didn't I say the top guys before? Hmm. Well, anyway, they do count in this debate. I don't often shape my opinions around big bike endurance, either, cause I don't run it much. But, that is a very important venue for CMRA and your points there are well taken.