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There are loads of people in the paddock that will help you learn and progress Matthew. IMHO, neither Walter ir BOD would allow someone to ride expert if they didn't believe it was safe and proper and deserved. Some of this is winter time boredom helmet talk and some is reaction to other comments and others reaction to percieved safety issues. Just go race, learn and progress as you can the rest will sort itself out. Don't be discouraged over this thread comments.
There are plenty of 'groups' of friends in this club that are more than willing to help a new/novice rider advance. Danny Dominguez is a perfect example of a guy who has helped several riders step up their game. Jim Dugger works some great breaking drills at ECR, that are extremely helpful. And not a single person in the club will ignore you, if you ever ask what line they take through a corner. Matthew, remember this is a forum, and people tend strike the keyboard a bit harder than they would face to face. With that being said, everyone is out at the track to have fun, some do take the competitive aspect of racing a bit more serious than others, but from my experience with this club, everyone enjoys seeing each other progress and share 'racing stories' after the checkered flag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Crowe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca Caudle
Yeah I hate to say it, but it's true and nobody ever wants to say it. Some racer's are ruthless and show no mercy on the track.
I didn't look up Mr Proler's lap times or results either, just going off what he said about him
Being a novice back marker. Since he didn't get the automatic bump, I assumed it was partially true.
I didn't hit the Powerball jackpot, so looks like it won't effect me about the subject. I'll stick to my routine of riding/racing once a year until I come across a lot of money.
I am not sure why but he is just passive when it comes to talking about lap times.
He is not the fastest novice but he rides fast enough to be in expert.
Novice riders pass the experts each year. Does that mean the experts are to slow or are the novices to fast?
This might be OK in a perfect world. I can't claim that I earned my plates this year, having done only 4 races, and spent the rest of the year injured. Stuff happens - people get hurt but still want to advance. For me, it's a question of ambition - if people want to bump themselves to expert without automatic promotion, then they have my respect. As someone else said, there's plenty of novices that catch up to the experts at the back and pass them, so it's not that big a deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Coffey
98% agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert McNaught
Find Danny and ask him any question you want about any turn on the circuit. I do it all the time, and it can literally be worth seconds of lap times. Its embarrassing how much knowledge I've shamelessly taken from that dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiah moreno
There's a backstory to this one. Proler is a special case lol. Usually unless you're way off pace or dangerous, no one will mind a bump, or a self bump. Proler just brings out the best in people. Personally i could care less, i roll up to enjoy myself results be damned. I try to go faster, i try to push, i try to place well, but in the end if it doesn't happen this is club racing. It's not how i make my living and i refuse to spend thousands of dollars and not enjoy myself. Come on out, we've got tons of people that will help you and have fun doing it. You want to know how to maximize your trackside/pit fun, come see me. I can't help with the fast part, but i know plenty of people that can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Crowe
Wow, I didn't think anyone would really care. See y'all in Houston.
Dont kid yourself Proler. Nobody cares. Unless you're bringing Patricia to the track...then we're happy to see you. :whack::whack::whack:Quote:
Originally Posted by David Proler
Rider classification also entitles you to that group for practice which in my opinion is either a great place to learn or a great filter. Congrats new white plates! and to all the nah sayers, chill out.
I JUST WANNA GO FAST!
http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/a...psc6425a93.jpg
I completely disagree with you William Guthrie. CMRA weekends are not the time and place to be learning to go fast. You should be training and practicing between races for the race. Thats what track days and race schools are for. The 2-5 laps in racer practice is not going to make you faster. That being said I applaud Proler for stepping up. Last year I saw novice racers going deep into the expert grid and on a wave start no less. Seemed like there were more expert novices than experts. Good luck to all the rookie experts!
Lest we forget Friday practice...
Really don't feel Friday practice is the best time to be learning how to go faster. Do you?
Everybody's doing different things. Shakedown runs, knocking off cobwebs, relearning the track etc.
You don't learn to go faster just by going faster. That's the last thing you do. Get a grip, Harry! Lol
Then when else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Lambert
When you take off more vacation and family time to drive 2-6 hours or more to go race practicing at a track day as an expert in level 3 with a bunch of street riders.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Guthrie
If your an expert by now you know how to do private member days and probably are or should be a member at a local track and have attended some expert level schools. Nobody should be out there just riding over their head just to keep up with the guy in front thinking that is learning. Just my .02
Doesn't describe me at all. I can't afford track days AND racing. My only non-race seat time is usually morning practice, sometimes (rarely) Friday practice. I'm just one guy, though, and one of the slower Experts so maybe I don't count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Lambert
Slow is right....I kid! I'm in the same boat. By that math I'll never make expert. Endurance racing has helped, and the new ICBM should get me all the way there. Go fast in practice, go faster in the race. Only option I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Henke
These are the lap time thresholds that ridesmart has for level 3. When I had the time to run TDs regularly in 12'&13' I could do these times on my 250. How much practice do you think an expert or some novices are going to get riding in there.
MSRH - 2:00 Minutes
TWS - 2:12 Minutes
ECR - 2:15 Minutes
MSRC - 1:35 Minutes
Harold, I don't think I know you, but I am going to respectfully disagree with you. I have picked up time in practice that paid off during a race. Not everyone has the ability to go to track days and race schools, but still want to go faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Lambert
Personally, yes, I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Lambert
This statement, I almost take offense to. Actually, it really digs at me for some reason. I've been an expert racer in the CMRA for the last couple years and in that time, I have managed to run personal bests at every track, every time I went back. Being based out of Missouri, the closest CMRA track to us is Hallett (6 hour drive) and all of the Texas tracks are at least 10 hours away. The closest road race course to us is in Topeka, just over 3 hours away, and they were closed all of last year. Memberships at a track simply aren't an option for us, and being able to afford a race school and race isn't happening either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Lambert
What all this means, is that the only time we were able to practice at a CMRA track in the last couple years is when we attended a race. As an example of how it worked for me...in 2014, I was able to take my best time at TWS from a mid 1:53 to a 1:49.0, by only running the race weekends and practice days. And at no time did I feel as if I was riding over my head. Pushing limits and trying to learn from those faster than me, absolutely, but not riding over my head to keep up with the racer in front of me. Seems to be pretty effective for me. Everyone is different though.
I feel the same way. I've also never done a personal best at a practice day. I'm always seconds off. Gridding up is what makes you faster. Do 10 trackdays and I'll do 10 races and we will see who found the most time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Henke
True story. I have a friend who always said "Trackdays are to racing what throwing bullets is to shooting them".Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Orr
Harold, considering that most of the fastest riders to ever come out of the CMRA started racing before track days ever existed I would have to say your reasoning is a little off.
So many responses I'll just start here. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca Caudle
Seat time is seat time. Take it for what it is but the quickest way is more seat time. Sure you will eventually get quicker just doing the season but guys who are training will get there faster. Or so I believe shooting practice at the range leads to better aim in competition.
Say hi to the wall Harold
Practice like you race or you will race like you practice
Hogwash. Show up. Have fun. Laugh a lot. Ride fast as you can. Laugh at idiots who take it so seriously and finish behind you. (Not me...just sayin...) Drink. Laugh more.
For the serious types;since it was meant in good humor, but missed the mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Staton Shed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KniUNdVZvH4
An awesome post likes this reminds me why I like you Mongo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Staton Shed
Wisdom!Quote:
Originally Posted by Staton Shed
Well said Jeremy. I hardly ever do practice days. I usually show up the day before to get everything set up, use the practice sessions race morning to shake the cobwebs off and get comfortable, and have fun racing that day. I usually improve every time I come out. Trying to keep the costs down after all. Expensive *** hobby this is. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Harvey
Congratulations to Shawn Treadaway for being moved up to Expert for 2016! Good job, Shawn! :thumb:
Though I disagree with Dennis on many other things, I sure do agree with him on this documentation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis King
This has been contested on MotoDFW.com for quite a while, and from what I have observed (just visiting the track day events), hasn't even ever been enforced.
The basically reply from management, why these lap times are so terribly high, is that RideSmart is not a 'racing school', it is simply and only, a 'Track Day' organization.
There are several people who do attend the pre-CMRA weekend (which everyone should already know is allocated to RideSmart), to get some 'practice' in, and many enjoy it. Personally, I would never do it...
There was a relative post to this subject matter once before, and I believe that I had made-mention of a comment made to me (was probably 3 years ago), from a current highly-talented Expert class member (and past BoD member), about half-way through the day, came in mid-session just shortly after lunch, took his helmet off, and said, "I knew better than to come out here...", and proceeded to pack up and depart the event; due to the terrible lack of skill that many Level 3 riders possess, but are allowed out there.
I have personally contested the allowance of numerous riders at the COTA events, with no success to have them lowered from Level 3. Always responded with, "this is just a track day, not race practice". That simply wasn't my point, I was trying to base on predictability, skill, and speed...
Harold, I respect you a lot, as you were one of my first friends when I started out in CMRA. But what you've listed here is terribly unfounded. As we all know, LoneStar has a lock on the Friday CMRA weekend (except Hallett), and Friday practice should be treated as just that, to tack onto other Expert class riders, and learn from, to go faster. I do believe that Friday practice sessions, had helped me immensely, in escalating my riding skills, being out there with faster riders, seeing how they handled turns, braking points, etc. Not many people can afford Membership at repeated tracks, or personal-training.
Congratulations to all the new Expert class members. Wishing to you a fun, safe, and exciting 2016 season.
Great post, Greg.
I was reading through this thread and the results for MSRH in round one, and I note that there's an update each time for "Congratulations to XXX, who requested expert status and was promoted"...well done to those people and much respect.
This seems to have generated some strong discussion, however, I don't see any updates for "Congratulations for XXX, who protested being an expert and demoted themselves back down to Novice", which should really be the topic generating discussion here. This seems to go under the radar, and I've seen at least one name simply disappear from this list, although unless you screenshot the original posting, this would go unnoticed, and is simply not talked about, almost like it didn't happen.
Nancy, do you think we could update the thread when riders protest their expert status, or post a list of the original expert list against the current one?
Checking the results for Houston, I see riders who have previously been determined to be fast enough to be Experts by CMRA, who protested and got demoted, then come back and win or at least podium races. It must completely SUCK for Novice riders that have gradually been getting better over the seasons and are at a stage where they could win their Novice championship, to be beaten by Expert riders in Novice races. To me, it's a pretty shameful action to protest when the organization has deemed you fast enough to be an Expert and come back and win as a Novice.
Anyone feel the same as me? Why are protests swept under the carpet, yet riders are complaining about novices who request a bump before they are automatically promoted...
I feel that riders being able to protest being bumped to expert should be stopped and the rule book should be modified to stop this. Interested in folks' thoughts here. Also, if there is a formal complaint process to follow around this, I'll follow it separately.
Well it can go both ways, there certainly are those sandbaggers who find a good enough excuse to stay novice. On the flip side there are those who are bumped who maybe shouldn't have been. Walters son placed in quite a few races and wasn't bumped Walter protested that 14ish year old kid had no business racing against experts and wasn't mature enough to ride with them. And it's a very valid point, therefore he stayed novice another year, won a lot of races and was then promoted. Trey was never given the initial bump to end up on the expert list because Walter is on the inside and explained it before Treys name was ever on the list. Not everyone one else has that inside connection so their kid or their own adult name may end up on the list.
The protest allows them the chance to explain, hey, I was riding over my head all season just to get 5th, another year novice will allow me to tone it down Or I'll be changing platforms from SV to 1000 and the experts aren't the place to learn this, etc, etc. Yes there are plenty of sandbaggers that will do whatever they can to get trophies and contingency but there are also plenty of riders who show up to every round and simply don't crash and end in the points, are they expert material? maybe not but they should have the chance to explain what was obvious to them and the people making the decision didn't have a clue about. The whole protest process is there just for those people.
not sure if you realize, you aren't automatically kept novice if you protest either. There are plenty of people who protested and get shot down some way more vocal about it then others. Coffey, Henke, etc.
Good info Dennis...it's not a perfect system I know, but I think at least when there's a protest, this list should be updated with the info on what happened. To me, looking from outside, it does seem a little unfair to some folks who are up and coming novices. And, yes, I'm aware that it's not an automatic demotion when you protest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis King
Rab,
I agree completely. Sandbagging is bad for the sport. I will bring up Terence specifically because when he was promoted at the end of the 2014 season, I spoke to him at the banquet to congratulate him for the promotion. He said he was protesting it, and knew it was sandbagging but oh well. Let's look at his 2014 stats: 9 podiums including 1 race win. Then he raced exactly 5 races in 2015 to "stay under the radar" and avoid promotion. 2015 stats: out of 5 races, 4 podiums including 1 race win. That seems good enough, and his lap times in the 2016 round 1 are fast enough, to play around with the experts. Intentionally "gaming" the system to stay a novice and spoil the season for people that actually deserve to belong there is poor sportsmanship.
I could agree that if someone protests it could be placed next to their name on this list they protested and yea or ney on the decision. I don't think it would be a good idea as to posting their excuse. For instance a few years ago someone had a novice championship locked before the last round then had a life altering crash and protested their bump probably not the best idea to offer up that info.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert McNaught
There have been a handful of bad protest decisions since I've been paying attention, I think overall the board and Walter do a great job on the protest applications, there's really only so much they can do. Don't have the rule book in front of me and if it's not in there perhaps the board should look into amending the protest rule to allow them to bump a protester mid-season if there is a preponderance of the evidence that shows they're sand bagging, although prepare for the can of worms that could open.
Ahhh.....
Didn't realize they were deleted if wanted to stay novice.
I guess that's why i swore 787 was on the initial expert list.
Or, i could be wrong.
I have had quiet a few Gloria's Signature Margaritas since then.
As far *** Terrance COONS, yeah....he's fa-fa-fa-faast!
(Inside joke for those who drink with me after the races.)
Not sure what his reason was but, he was on a BMW 1000RR that ended up getting stolen sometime that 2014 season.
I think he ended up using Jessicas small Kawasaki 636 for the 2015 season.
Now, he on his R-Juan.
(Nuff said.)
Like i said, not sure what his reasons were.
But, seems legit.
Also, Rab has a valid point as well.
If you're going to "call out" any group for any reason.....call out all.
You know they're are several people on this board who like to be all "thumb thuggin'" on here and say a word or two.
Just playing devils advocate.
Side note: Does anyone ever get approached in person at the track like they do on here?
Just a thought.
Cheerio!
Yeah, I was just thinking one solution is to have protest petitions made available to the CMRA membership on the forum...riders would be less likely to protest if their justification was made available to the entire CMRA membership - this would help limit intentional sandbagging, because it clearly does happen, and is hidden. Right now as it works, we don't know what the reasons are for protests and the justification for the decision to demote someone...as a member, we just see the name disappearing from the expert list like magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis King
You bring up a good point that there are protest petitions that may justify some privacy...however, I think in the example, people would be understanding if someone did have a life-altering crash and decided to protest - it wouldn't be a secret on why someone protested anyway in this case. You could either have privacy for all, like it is now, or less privacy for all, but it would need to be consistent across all petitions, whatever the justification. If someone I knew had a life-altering crash and decided to protest a bump to expert because it would impact their riding significantly in the next season, I wouldn't lose respect for them, or for CMRA for approving the demotion.
I however, lose respect for anyone that protests without a decent reason, or simply "isn't comfortable" or "didn't win enough races" (I've actually heard through gossip that this has been used before as a protest justification!!!). If you think about it, there isn't actually a lot of reasons for legitimately protesting expert status, and it should be extremely rare...maybe not even 1 rider per year. If someone hadn't raced for 10 years, and wanted to come back as a novice...kinda makes sense, and we all see that. However, people that are borderline or, as suggested earlier, are riding "over their head" as a novice simply wouldn't be off expert pace by that much the next season - they might end up 10th in an expert race, rather than 2nd in a novice race (then the hashtags and selfies don't look so good :) ) . We see in the waved starts just how much overlap there is between experts and novices - a large overlap to say the least.
Yes, I kinda imagined that this post would open a can of worms (worms drowning in sand jajajaja), but think it warrants a discussion, hopefully with a tangible process change to make this more transparent.
Another suggestion I've heard is that removing contingency for novices could help stop this. I think overall we need riders to have more reasons to be an expert, rather than more reasons to be a novice. Unfortunately, we see new experts quitting because they suddenly can't podium races when they become an expert. Some of this is cultural "everybody gets a trophy", and everybody needs to feel like they are winning, like Charlie Sheen.
Overall, IMHU(uneducated)O there's not enough transparency to limit protests to the absolute minimum, and there's not enough push back from the CMRA (this is easy for me to say, but of course, no members aside from BoD see the protest petitions) to deny protest petitions from riders that are clearly fast enough to be expert, and there's more reasons to remain a novice and sandbag than to become a middle-of-the pack expert. I know there is a fine line here between retaining novices as racers and making it fair for novices...there is no magic bullet here...but I think there are things that can be done to make this more fair, and limit poor sportsmanship.
True true true ma man. Yes, 787 was one that disappeared, and the only one I noticed. I don't know if there was any others, since you can't see these changes, and you have to assume from a protest - one that isn't seen, and riders are not informed about it (though they are for bumps).Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lopez
I did note that Terence had previously protested the year before after being promoted by CMRA. My posting isn't specifically aimed at any particular rider, but more so at process around the names disappearing. However, I'm sure folks reading this have some ideas on riders who stood out as doing rather well in novice races at MSRH and had previously disappeared from a new expert list, whether this year or last. For me, on the approaching at the track comment, I wouldn't say anything in a forum that I wouldn't say to someone in person. Actually, with me, I'm probably more likely to be direct in person, though, of course, respectfully. It always pays to speak your mind in person.
I think riders could do with being able to understand the reasons for a protest petition...it would minimize gossip around it. Like I mentioned before, there are legitimate reasons for protests...illness for example, but these are pretty rare, actually should be extremely rare - I mentioned illness, but if you are that ill where you can't ride to a pace close to where you rode before, maybe you shouldnt be riding (anyone have any other legitimate reasons? - I can't think of any more). With the rider index, it's difficult for someone not fast enough to be accidentally promoted before they are ready to be safe in an expert race. This would be better than having whispering of "so and so protested, but we don't know why".
I could get on board with seeing an edit to the expert list that says protested (approved/denied) instead of removing their name altogether. This would provide the opportunity for someone to notice and if they can present data to Walter and the board that would change outcome then they could file that in with the board. I would not agree with posting the riders protest application/reason at all.
I don't think removing contingency would help as much as it would hurt. Honestly look back and think of how many people protested and sandbagged to stay novice vs how many people benefit from contingency overall as a Novice. Maybe a hand full? No one likes the I didn't win enough races excuse but how many of those people actually got to stay novice. I'd like to think Walter sees right through it but I'm sure one or two slip through, but again how many?
Some people just aren't mature enough to be experts and will ride over their head as a novice and place well, put them in an expert field they may simply crash out trying to keep up to the much faster pace. Or worse take some one with them which then you'll have people complaining they shouldn't be in the expert field and should have never been promoted. Again, I think Walter and the board do a great job filtering those people before the list ever comes out and filtering a second time with the protests, but like any system it's not perfect.
I would like to see a mid season bump for protested novices discussed added to the rules if it becomes "obvious" the rider is baggin it. That way if there is a sandbaggin rider they will have to weigh the option of doing great(trophies and contingency) and risk getting a mid season bump or not doing so great, possibly not run some rounds, and lose contingency and trophies to avoid being bumped. Hopefully in either case the "cheating protesters" that slip through are never off the hook.
BOD? curious 9 podiums and 1 race win an was able to protest and y'all approved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McGehee
and I agree 100% with Rob, reasons should be made public.
I wasn't on the BOD on this decision, so I can't speak to it. I do think that we've got some people who "work" the system to their advantage in setting themselves up for a nice novice run. Admittedly it IS hard to tell. I know a few of the very fast novices who have worked hard to be fast...I'm suspicious where the speed came from others. I'd like to see some mechanisms put in place to prevent sandbagging. Not much we can do this year I don't think, but as the only novice BOD member, it's something that I get to witness. Novices who have lap times that fall within the top 3-5 experts shouldn't be gridding with the novice group. That's my opinion only.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Glen
I asked 787 on 2-13-16 why he still had yellow number plates on his bike. He only raced 2 rounds last season. Yes, that was 10 races and he did well in those, but I could see a few valid reasons for protest. That deserves a pass in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lopez
For the record, Trey was still eligible for Jr. Motard until his birthday last year, his last novice season. Now that he is not Jr. Motard eligible, he is an expert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis King