Just to be clear on my behalf....
I only pointed 787 because i like the way he rides the times I've seen him at some track days.
And......MR. COONS, because i like messing with him.
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Just to be clear on my behalf....
I only pointed 787 because i like the way he rides the times I've seen him at some track days.
And......MR. COONS, because i like messing with him.
End contingency for Novices. Case closed. Sandbagging slows, but will never stop.
To all my race fans and former buddies....I am greatly disappointed in how quickly you turn into a bunch of whiny babies. I don't talk crap, I don't disrespect and I treat each and every one of you as I would like to be treated. I'm not accustomed to having to defend myself or my choices. I make a point to avoid the drama, I find life to too short and my time to precious to often deal with petty situations like this, but for those who asked for it, you now have my attention. Yes at the end of 2014 I has bumped to expert and protested to remain a novice, with all of my 1 year racing experience, one totaled BMW S1000RR another brand new one badly damaged and both due to bad judgement calls on my part, I managed to put my pride aside. I admitted to myself that no matter how badly I wanted the white plates...I just wasn't ready. I'm too old to let my ego get the best of me and just smart enough not to put myself in a situation that could cause myself or others harm. The BOD had no problems agreeing with my justification to remain a novice. I started out 2015 with my new business, my new endurance team, a stock 636 and yes my BMW was stolen over Christmas. I had a couple very good races on the 636 but found myself at the limits of its stock setup and with everything else going on, I chose to focus on the endurance team. Anyone here who has humbled themselves enough to step down from a liter bike and throw their leg over a 300 realizes just how much can be learned. A year on the 300, instructing with RideSmart and 6 months spent trying to get comfortable on the new R1 has greatly changed my confidence and skill level. I find it funny Michael, I didn't compete in any of the classes you were signed up in, but in your ignorance you were quick to try and call me out. At this point I would be more than happy to prep the 636 and show you first hand what I've learned over the last year. This middle finger is for you buddy and I can't wait to see you on the track. Oh yeah... you mentioned "deserving to belong," you got me there. I don't deserve anything, I'm just lucky enough to be part of it.
How did you get on the BOD and better yet, how do you plan on staying there after making that post. Real smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Dye
Contingency for novices is an incentive for some to stay novice Terence. It's not a novel idea and I know it's surfaced before.
I can tell you many novices (read new racers into the club...the life blood)become discouraged when they work hard and progress and then almost magically, racers appear seemingly out of nowhere and are appreciably faster. Let me ask you this; how does contingency help the 95% of the club's racers who won't ever sniff it?
Terance, not sure where attacking me or the idea comes from...I know you feel beaten up a bit from your previous post. I've said nothing about you or anyone specifically.
My comment might have been emotionally driven and for that I apologize but the point made in it is valid. I would encourage you to be careful what you choose to put in writing.
You have a very good point with the contingency, having sponsored a class last year I am fully aware of the 95% that are left discouraged from seeing the faster riders be given the most help. Shandra and I spoke in depth about how I could make it more obtainable and evenly distributed amongst racers when I choose to sponsor anther race. Either way it is up to the sponsor as to how they choose to reward racers and thus what we choose to be a part of. Sometimes it just is what it is, but name calling and finger pointing has never changed anything.
Apology accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terence Ladner
But to answer your original question; It takes some thick skin brother. More than you know...more than I thought I needed. And I just started.
Terence, my point is that you are expert level and would have better competition amongst experts, not novices. if you had started in the expert wave of race #7 you would've been dicing it up with Jeff Wrobel and Brandie Cox! I thought the goal of racing novice was to get the skills and speed necessary to join the big boys (and girls) on the expert grids. At least, that is my goal. I have no doubt that you have learned a lot over the past two years of racing/instructing. All you RS instructors are blowing up lately.
No need for the middle finger.
But....but....everyone likes the birdQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael McGehee
Anyone know where I can find a decent pit bike/scooter?.....oh wait, sorry....wrong room.
Check the basement of The Alamo. :bannana:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Ugoh
Psshhh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McGehee
Helllooo!
Not Satchquatch
Aka...Rainbow Coalition Joe!
I just use my GSX-R 1000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Ugoh
As big as i am, i make it look like a pit bike at least.
TRU storey.
I hope you're still rocking that rainbow coalition name tag. :-D
I agree with the no contingency for novice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Dye
I think I may be totally missing the boat on the contingency process. Either I'm doing it wrong, or I have a completely distorted view of what my time is worth. I've "won" several Novice contingencies, and the best I can say for that whoopass process is that it serves two purposes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Dye
1) Makes me feel like a real racer when I get to blurt out my "sponsor's" name and put their cool looking stickers on my bike.
2) I get to GROSSLY overstate they're value to Mrs. #120, as I quickly flash my coupons in front of her when I get home on Sunday night. Right before I misplace them, or throw them away when they expire.
I'm not really complaining - As Allen says, Novices don't really deserve contingencies. But before anyone gives me the "every dollar helps" lecture, I would urge any Novice who thinks he's reeling in the bucks to consider the time spent dealing with it to use that time making money the old fashioned way. Its much more effective.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't have been able to do more than maybe 4 rounds in 2011 without contingency. Netted around $300 / weekend and total costs before that were about $500. Not capable of winning it as Expert precludes me from sprinting. Do math, keep contingency.
Seriously. Think about how little effort it would take to make $500 bucks over a period of 9 months if you really needed it. If you were to take the time you've spent doing the math, filling out the forms, redeeming the coupons, blah, blah, you're making less than you could mowing lawns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Henke
I have a goped for sale. Starts but doesn't keep running. 700 quid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Ugoh
I still think that a intermediate class would be good saying that I raced my first expert race at Houston and will say it was by far with no comparison the most fun I have had racing yes I got schooled but damn it was a good time
I will never understand the mind of someone that sandbags to win a Short Bus Championship(s). I have a lot of respect for riders like Tim Rose that bumped up to Expert during their novice season when they were one of the dominate riders of the field. Rab is another rider that comes to mind, he had a strong showing at the beginning of last year and if it were not for an injury, would have likely been a dominate rider throughout the season. But instead bumped himself, so when he comes back, he will be racing where he belongs. I've rarely sprint raced and have stuck to endurance for 3 years, but this year I plan to sprint and move on, if the CMRA deems me worthy.
Rab has a pretty good idea. If you have contested promotion in the past then you should be considered for mid season promotion. Anyone that can start toward the back of the wave and make the box has proven they can ride well enough for expert. 8 race season or 2 race season shouldn't hold that much weight as the ability to move through the grids to the front.
As a novice rider I started in back and won I only raced 4 races last year previous to that 1 or 2 a year saying that as a novice I did catch a lot of it last year but watching and riding with experts when you are novice is very very intimidating you really don't know what u will get until you try it but bumping a rider in mid season for being dominate I don't agree with unless he has been promoted and reclassified a rider who is just plain out fast and worked to get there let him or her enjoy the time they have earned and move on to the next level at the end of the season
I find it surprisingly easy to read your run-on sentences, but adding a period here and there would work wonders! Lol
Lol im almost blind and on a cell phone sorry
LOL, I didn't even notice until Josh mentioned it. That's why I bought a Note 3, phone is easier to see and read.Quote:
Originally Posted by robert duncan
I need to do something i have to vdt my kids to read things to me when they are around lol
I agree Robert. Mid season bump would be good for dominate riders that were previously avalible to be moved to expert. Someone that has a valid excuse to contest being moved up and then dominates half a season should really be readdressed. There will always be the Breaden Ortt's to worry about but those are the ones that never contest a promotion.
I was hoping to have white plates by now, but I didn't get to Sprint last year and lost out on that experience.
There are many Novice racers who do quite well, and don't make 1-cent back in contingency!...
2012, I was Formula 40 Heavyweight Novice Champion, and on the season-ending podium in Formula 1 Novice, Superbike A Novice, and Modern Classic; spending upwards of $10,000 out of my own pocket, and to further note, with Zero sponsorship as well.
All these comments about Novices, and making money back in contingency (keeping them in the sport or CMRA), etc, is pathetic, and insulting...
Well let me say the white plate experience is awsome .when u read your name until you grid up and then cross the stripe.i will say it was a proud moment to roll out with the white back ground a bit of confidence does come with it .
Couldn't we just add a system for people who protest a bump where they score points for podiums, say, 1 pt for 3rd, 2 pts for 2nd, 3 pts for 1st once you get to x number of points (10 pts or whatever) you get bumped to expert? Takes the guess work out of the hands of the BOD and makes sandbagging to get contingency money impossible for more than a round or two.
I don't think it would be a terrible idea to take some contingency away from novice races and add to the places that score contingency in expert. So, say the top 5 or 6 experts get contingency. I always thought it was weird you could score just a much contingency money/coupons winning a novice race as an expert. But I really don't know much about what goes into getting contingency and sponsors set up for the races so I'm probably just talking way over my head.
Ya know I get the lets stop the sandbagging but really lets stop contingency for novices? Sorry but without the novices showing up each race weekend the organization couldn't afford it. Novices are racers too, sorry if we are an insult to all you professional experts. How about we let the people who actually put up the money to say where it goes. Pathetic turn of comments on this thread, pathetic....lets respect all racers who try as hard as they might. Allen you went down a notch in my book for even starting this...
I went the other route. No wins or podiums outside of endurance. I could careless about contingency or trying to be the fastest novice. I just want to get faster and after feeling a little timid at MSRH, I must say I feel must more comfortable and feel much safer with the experts.
Looking forward to TWS!
I agree David its no comparison to racing in novice. I think let people ride no matter what color plates i love big grids and seeing riders sty riding all this picking on people is bull if they like being the fastest novice so what its usually a expert who complaints anyway unless you have a group of novices complaining who cares .
I'm just happy to be out there progressing. That's a win in my book. To each his own - just as long as it's done safely.
So, when I revived this thread yesterday, I did so because my complaint was simply "new experts simply disappear from the new expert list with no notification or explanation to the members". Names just disappear due to a behind-the-scenes protest, and it's swept under the carpet and mostly unnoticed. The thread seemed to go straight off this issue - does anyone here support that the names disappear from the list without any explanation?
I think this should be fixed, so that at least there is a notification sent out to members on a protest status. This is easy to fix - Nancy just puts an update saying "XXX protested expert status and it was approved by CMRA", and updates the list with what has happened this year with protests. This firstly discourages the practice of protesting, and reduces the potential for gossip and confusion around this.
On the subject of New Expert's protesting, personally, and this is only my opinion, which I'm allows to have and vocalize - I don't think there is any grounds for anyone on a new expert list to contest an automatic promotion to expert. Here's why - to be automatically promoted to expert, you have to do 8-10 races in a season, and have a good enough rider index and lap times to show that you are fast enough to be an expert. Due to this system, which does work rather well, everyone on the New Expert List is fast enough and capable enough to be in expert races, and has NO grounds for protesting the promotion. There are no big mistakes here - CMRA aren't promoting riders at the back of the Novice pack by accident. If you are on the New Expert List, CMRA has deemed you an expert, and "not being comfortable", or whatever other reasons come up simply are not good enough. Honestly, when you give this some calm thought, there isn't any good reason for someone who is automatically promoted to be an expert to turn around and say "I should be a novice". I did cite an example earlier in this thread of someone coming back to racing after an extended period of not racing or illness, and this may be an example where someone could be demoted. I don't think there is any other justifiable reasons for protest. I'm curious what other reasons have been approved by CMRA in the past to come off a New Expert List.
This, coupled with reviewing the results from MSRH, riders who have previously protested being experts and disappeared from said new expert list, do rather well. There is nothing wrong with this, and it's not unexpected by any means. You would expect these riders to at least be getting Novice podiums, and probably winning Novice championships. If you are in a novice championship, you should be riding to your full ability and trying to win, so implementing something where riders are on a watch list for sandbagging is not a system which can work in my opinion - it's too complicated and could be unfair. None of this posting is aimed at a specific rider, but I think from the comments yesterday, we all acknowledge that sandbagging can happen, experts can protest and then come back as a novice and dominate, maximimizing contingency money and trophies. If this does happen, it is poor sportsmanship and there needs to be measures in place to stop it. I'm not objecting to the idea that riders could be promoted mid-season if they have previously been promoted to expert, protested it, and then dominated their championships, but it needs to be a fair process, even to those riders, and I don't think this can be made fair.
THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THIS HAPPENING COMPLETELY AND BE FAIR TO EVERYONE IS TO 100% BAN PROTESTS ON NEW EXPERT LISTS AND WRITE THIS INTO A RULE BOOK.
The fact that new experts can protest their status and go back to being a novice is at the very root of the problem here. Petitioning CMRA for a demotion after an extended period of absense from riding is a different matter and needs handled differently, and on a case-by-case basis.
Further, on the subject of removing contingency from novices, this is ultimately up to sponsors, not to CMRA, so it's a bit of a mute point here...sponsors can do whatever they want to do, and it's not CMRA's place to dictate this. I think the underlying concern here leading to these suggestions is that there are incentives to remain a fast novice, and win, rather than be a middle-of-the-pack expert. I think everyone here acknowledges the importance of novices riders in CMRA, and there's no reason for anyone to be offended here around this topic. I say overall, we all need to encourage riders to become experts, and that encouragement can come from a number of sources, not simply contingency.
Around Mr Proler, he has stated a few comments ago that he feels comfortable as an expert after round 1. I think everyone here should tip their hat to him next time they see him and give the kudos deserved here to pushing himself to move up. If Mr Proler is comfortable being an expert, when he wasn't automatically promoted, then why aren't riders on the automatical promotion list not comfortable and protesting...
Dennis,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis King
You asked me in another thread why I feel sorry for you. Well this is why. Your glass is always half empty. In the absence of all the facts you always seem to assume that something secret or even underhanded is going on. That's why I feel sorry for you Dennis.
Contingency is in the hands of the vendors, if they wish to foster novice riders so be it. The club is responsible for managing the move from novice to expert. Make it objective as possible then no worries. In 2005 I raced against a 2nd year novice who showed up up like an AMA racer, I didn't even have tire warmers until mid-season; who knew...
I don't see it as the glass being half empty and not sure why you do either. Y'all made the decision no to bump your kid, it was a valid reason that he wasn't mature enough and there was nothing wrong with it. I fail to see how that might be seen as something underhanded. Would you bump someone elses 13ish y/o kid if they said they needed another novice season to ride a 600? if so then that thought might cross my mind. But you didn't and it didn't so you're creating your own problems. I guess it's me that should feel sorry for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Walker
My goal is to get bumped by the CMRA. I don't care how or when, but I'll be excited about racing with experts just as soon as I'm told I'm good enough.
An no, I'm not going to make that claim myself. Because it's my goal to get bumped. Not sure why that would be considered dishonorable, but it's my goal so it is what it is. I couldn't get it done last year in LW, so I'm going to take the opportunity to move up to litre bikes this year as a Novice.
In the meantime, would somebody please explain what Novice contingency out there is worth sandbagging for?
I would like to start a petition to keep Felio off of a liter bike for 2016.
How many signatures would I need to make that happen? :lol:
There is a decent amount of contingency in Novice, it doesn't pay as much as Expert but we don't spend as much either.
Tires are just the main one, then your class sponsors. No one is going to get rich doing this ****.
Dennis, in post #137, Walter quotes you and bold's for effect your assertion that something underhanded went on. You posted it. It's right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis King
Are you saying now that your post was not as was typed? A retraction and clarification would in order. This is precisely what I was talking about in the other thread about keeping things stirred up with jabs at the board and/or staff. It's in black and white. It's not helpful to the discussion.
I have an issue with 'not being comfortable' not being a valid reason. Everyone is different. I'm fast at a couple tracks (but not fast enough to podium in novice this year so far) because I've only been to TWS and MSRH. I've never sprinted at any other track. I've been to ECR once (3 years ago) and Hallet once on my big bike at track days, I haven't been to any of the other tracks on anything bigger than a 250 and in some cases, never been at all. It takes me a while to get to know tracks and I don't want to get to know tracks riding in Expert because I know the pace would be too fast for me at the majority of tracks I go to. Other people are different and can pick up tracks really quickly, but that's not me. I'm pretty competitive and I know I would push myself beyond my limits trying to keep up on tracks I don't know. So when I was bumped, I protested. I had been saving up money for the last few years to be able to complete a full season this year. I knew I'd make it to expert next year, but I wanted to make sure I knew the tracks and wouldn't be a hazard to myself or others. I had some strong finishes last year at the first two rounds which is what bumped me up. My protest was denied so I made a decision, based on this and other factors, to stop racing. I've been racing for 3 years doing 1 or 2 rounds a year as I could afford them while saving up money to finally be able to do a full season, so I was pretty bummed about it, but I'm not going to complain about it. But it was a choice I made because I don't feel I'm ready and I feel that I would've been a danger to not only myself, but to other riders. Maybe in a few years after I do some track days at some other tracks and get used it, I might try it again.
I just wanted to point out that everyone is different and not being comfortable can be completely legitimate, at least to me. Legitimate enough for me to stop doing it because I felt it exceeded my tolerance of risk.
-Cody
I have problem with that Cody, and again, this isn't specific to anyone; A racer can't simultaneously go out and rip up the novice class, run in the middle of the expert class, and claim they weren't comfortable doing it. If we went with this as reason for protest, then we may as well be an all self promotion club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Stewart
Cody, so you are saying that at a new track, you would be more comfortable starting in a field of novices that also might not know the track and know where they are going? Than say starting at the back of the field of Experts, with riders you've been racing against for 2 years and probably know the track and know where they are going? Know how to make clean passes?
Cody you should do yourself a favor give it 1race. I was nervous also but the guys and girls in expert are as it is experts .
they make clean lines passes and it is a great learning experience that you can't and will not get in novis.come pit with me and I'll help out with your transition as best I can and I put that out there for any new expert
I agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Dye
Yes. Because I know I have a better chance of not wrecking if I screw up following, lets say you, than following, lets say - Jay Bullard. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorke Oldfather
I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for people to understand. Not everyone is the same. I'm a very competitive person. Extremely competitive. I will literally break the frame by wrecking at 130mph on my bike trying to pass people who are already faster than me and on a bigger bike...at a track day. Colin Edwards, Dustin Dominguez, some other famous mx dude that I cant remember his name - more examples of people I've tried to block and/or pass and wrecking in the process (luckily, those were on dirt). I wrecked doing the same thing last year trying to pass someone at TWS. I know me better than anyone else here. It's not about sand bagging, it's not about contingency, and its not about winning trophies for me. It based on my personal experience and my personality. Luckily, I've only taken myself out. I'm not going to take the chance of doing it at a level where I'm not comfortable with because where I can make a mistake trying to follow someone in novice and have the bike and tires save me from my own mess up, that margin of error isn't there in expert.
Exhibit A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zvN1sHgrwk
-Cody
So it's like you can't be around hookers cause you can't control yourself enough not to bang them?
We are all competitive and just cause you push yourself to hard and wreck doesn't mean you are not fast enough to be expert.
In most cases when you move up I would think you would be riding with the same people as the previous season.
If you are fast enough for expert at one track you should be fast enough for all of them. You won't have a perfect line, but people just have to jump in the water at some point. Riding an SV with all these fast expert teams really puts it in perspective. I am less worried about being hit by one of the Idiots or Army than any novice class I've been in.
FINALLY. Someone that gets me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Orr
You'd be fine Cody. You went to Hallett and ran '21s your first time there. That was faster than any lap in BSS/CSS Novice at the first Hallett round last year and not DFL in the expert classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Stewart