What do you get from an affiliation?

We were a independant club before. Some would say
it was some of the best years in the clubs history. What are your thoughts. Remember the
contingency was as good or in some cases better when the club was independant.

The questions are here because the space in the poll format is to small.

1: Do you feel you get something more than a trip
to Daytona or Road A for the money we pay for
the privelage of being affiliated with WERA or
the CCS?

2: If the CMRA was independant next year would
you quit attending races?

3: If it could be shown to you with simple, easy
to understand numbers where the club could
offer the same or better benefits for you
would you be in favor for being independant?

4: If anything was to change would you want it
to be voted up or down by the membership as
a whole?

5: You really don't give a rats rear what happens
just as long as you can pay your money and
speed around a track every once in a while?


After voting please elaborate on any of your answers.

Remember, don't be afraid of your freedom.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

We were a independant club before. Some would say
it was some of the best years in the clubs history. What are your thoughts. Remember the
contingency was as good or in some cases better when the club was independant.

The questions are here because the space in the poll format is to small.

1: Do you feel you get something more than a trip
to Daytona or Road A for the money we pay for
the privelage of being affiliated with WERA or
the CCS?

2: If the CMRA was independant next year would
you quit attending races?

3: If it could be shown to you with simple, easy
to understand numbers where the club could
offer the same or better benefits for you
would you be in favor for being independant?

4: If anything was to change would you want it
to be voted up or down by the membership as
a whole?

5: You really don't give a rats rear what happens
just as long as you can pay your money and
speed around a track every once in a while?


After voting please elaborate on any of your answers.

Remember, don't be afraid of your freedom.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

I did race when it was independent I could not say that I noticed much diffrence between that and ccs save the cost. I also raced when it was wera and the difference is that the days went so much smoother when we were not in a combined race.

We seemed to get more coverage as an independent club.

I did race when it was independent I could not say that I noticed much diffrence between that and ccs save the cost. I also raced when it was wera and the difference is that the days went so much smoother when we were not in a combined race.

We seemed to get more coverage as an independent club.

This kind of discussion is fairly scary. Not from the perspective that it is not a relevant topic, BUT there are very few who can truly understand the long-term context of what is being discussed.

Here are some thoughts.

1) With the largest (measured by entries) endurance series in the country, why have the OEM's stayed away from the CMRA endurance series?

A. In 1991-1992, I originally brokered a deal to bring 5000.00 cash from EBC/Garry Gallagher. In short, the deal fell apart and we only ended up with EBC certs. My personal observation was that it did not make sense for any manufacturer to focus those types of resources IN JUST ONE AREA of the country. I also believe we lacked the national level organization to "pull off" such a deal.

2) People like to say that we ran fine as an independent. The truth of the matter is we only ran one year. We basically were a legacy for contingency programs (Harry Tomlinson might be able to comment more accurately) and I believe WE DON'T really know what will happen on that level until we are on our own for several years.

3) The original CMRA-WERA split was as much emotion as it was business. I do know that communication failed on both sides, but it is arguable who started what. THIS IS A BAD THING. In conversations with WERA, I have stressed communication is a two way street. Because communication broke down, the business process broke down (as no counter proposals ever went either way). I also stress that CMRA is unique in that it is a really huge organization that is uniquely self-sufficient. This club is not like dealing with MRA or any of the other various regional orgainzations.

4) I think the CMRA fights its origanal charter in many instances due to personal attitudes, etc. The original charter (paraphrased) was to promote road racing in the Texas/South Central area. The CMRA and other regional clubs have a very intricate implied responsibility with that through charter principles. That implied responsibility is supporting a national organization (sanctioning body) that provides complimentary services and value to the regional and vice-versa. Ultimately, a regional working with a national organization has more potential "power", the National body has to work on this too!!! If the national takes the regional for granted or vice-versa, then the relationship does not work.

Final thoughts. I honestly thought when the "new" CCS came onto the scene in 2000 with CCS trying to capture national attention with F-USA series, this was going to be the future. Unfortunately the realities of business vetoed the passion required to be involved in racing. While I was talking to John Ulrich at the banquet, I was reminded of something that is very important to all of us whether we conciously want it or not. John mentioned, "WERA provided a consistent platform that you knew would be there". Other than entry statistics I don't know what CCS has provided to the community that will have any long term impact. In this same thought, I do believe some of the business drivers within CCS have driven down costs on items that are commonly coordinated at a national level. With that said, I don't believe CCS is serving the CMRA better interests.

I remember when we had a national sanctioning body that brought "the show" into town. We had racers like Michael Martin, Mark Black, Rick Kirk, and many others able to showcase their talents in THEIR backyard against national level competition.

I remember when the CMRA/CRRC was about meeting the regional riders need and the rider that aspired to get national recognition.

I remember when a CMRA/CRRC regional endurance race would run with a WERA national and racers did not have to travel out of region to try and win "Big $$$" in the endurance series.

I remember all of that occurred when we were with WERA and effective communication took place.

Marcus McBain

This kind of discussion is fairly scary. Not from the perspective that it is not a relevant topic, BUT there are very few who can truly understand the long-term context of what is being discussed.

Here are some thoughts.

1) With the largest (measured by entries) endurance series in the country, why have the OEM's stayed away from the CMRA endurance series?

A. In 1991-1992, I originally brokered a deal to bring 5000.00 cash from EBC/Garry Gallagher. In short, the deal fell apart and we only ended up with EBC certs. My personal observation was that it did not make sense for any manufacturer to focus those types of resources IN JUST ONE AREA of the country. I also believe we lacked the national level organization to "pull off" such a deal.

2) People like to say that we ran fine as an independent. The truth of the matter is we only ran one year. We basically were a legacy for contingency programs (Harry Tomlinson might be able to comment more accurately) and I believe WE DON'T really know what will happen on that level until we are on our own for several years.

3) The original CMRA-WERA split was as much emotion as it was business. I do know that communication failed on both sides, but it is arguable who started what. THIS IS A BAD THING. In conversations with WERA, I have stressed communication is a two way street. Because communication broke down, the business process broke down (as no counter proposals ever went either way). I also stress that CMRA is unique in that it is a really huge organization that is uniquely self-sufficient. This club is not like dealing with MRA or any of the other various regional orgainzations.

4) I think the CMRA fights its origanal charter in many instances due to personal attitudes, etc. The original charter (paraphrased) was to promote road racing in the Texas/South Central area. The CMRA and other regional clubs have a very intricate implied responsibility with that through charter principles. That implied responsibility is supporting a national organization (sanctioning body) that provides complimentary services and value to the regional and vice-versa. Ultimately, a regional working with a national organization has more potential "power", the National body has to work on this too!!! If the national takes the regional for granted or vice-versa, then the relationship does not work.

Final thoughts. I honestly thought when the "new" CCS came onto the scene in 2000 with CCS trying to capture national attention with F-USA series, this was going to be the future. Unfortunately the realities of business vetoed the passion required to be involved in racing. While I was talking to John Ulrich at the banquet, I was reminded of something that is very important to all of us whether we conciously want it or not. John mentioned, "WERA provided a consistent platform that you knew would be there". Other than entry statistics I don't know what CCS has provided to the community that will have any long term impact. In this same thought, I do believe some of the business drivers within CCS have driven down costs on items that are commonly coordinated at a national level. With that said, I don't believe CCS is serving the CMRA better interests.

I remember when we had a national sanctioning body that brought "the show" into town. We had racers like Michael Martin, Mark Black, Rick Kirk, and many others able to showcase their talents in THEIR backyard against national level competition.

I remember when the CMRA/CRRC was about meeting the regional riders need and the rider that aspired to get national recognition.

I remember when a CMRA/CRRC regional endurance race would run with a WERA national and racers did not have to travel out of region to try and win "Big $$$" in the endurance series.

I remember all of that occurred when we were with WERA and effective communication took place.

Marcus McBain

Does the cost of insurance offset the cost of CCS affiliation? Just wondering. I don't want to get in any pi$$ing matches on affiliation and such. I was thinking, though, that part of the reason to go with CCS was insurance cost as an independent. Not sure what gave me that notion, maybe I heard it from Charlie or something.

I'm not sure about contingencies, but if it costs significantly less to run an independent club, not having to pay affiliation costs and all, and we can race cheaper, do we need all that many contingencies? The top guys in the big classes worry about contingencies, most of us don't. Lower license fees and entries would be better for us.

Just off the cuff thinking here. I've really given this subject little thought.

Does the cost of insurance offset the cost of CCS affiliation? Just wondering. I don't want to get in any pi$$ing matches on affiliation and such. I was thinking, though, that part of the reason to go with CCS was insurance cost as an independent. Not sure what gave me that notion, maybe I heard it from Charlie or something.

I'm not sure about contingencies, but if it costs significantly less to run an independent club, not having to pay affiliation costs and all, and we can race cheaper, do we need all that many contingencies? The top guys in the big classes worry about contingencies, most of us don't. Lower license fees and entries would be better for us.

Just off the cuff thinking here. I've really given this subject little thought.

I think that Marcus makes some good points. There are tangible benefits from a national affliation. If this issue is up for consideration I think that it will be important to ensure that we reevaluate the decision to leave WERA. The WERA national endurance series and the GNF participation would provide value to a large part of our members.

I think that Marcus makes some good points. There are tangible benefits from a national affliation. If this issue is up for consideration I think that it will be important to ensure that we reevaluate the decision to leave WERA. The WERA national endurance series and the GNF participation would provide value to a large part of our members.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
1) With the largest (measured by entries) endurance series in the country, why have the OEM's stayed away from the CMRA endurance series?

Marcus McBain

Last year we also had the most hours raced and if you counted backwards the most venues.
I think wera is second in those things. This year I think they have us in hours raced unless we count all classes. I am pretty sure as it sits we were 1st and 3rd. with tmgp being 4th.

this year we are way down from them in hours raced.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
1) With the largest (measured by entries) endurance series in the country, why have the OEM's stayed away from the CMRA endurance series?

Marcus McBain

Last year we also had the most hours raced and if you counted backwards the most venues.
I think wera is second in those things. This year I think they have us in hours raced unless we count all classes. I am pretty sure as it sits we were 1st and 3rd. with tmgp being 4th.

this year we are way down from them in hours raced.

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen Weir, ysr612:

Quote:

Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
1) With the largest (measured by entries) endurance series in the country, why have the OEM's stayed away from the CMRA endurance series?

Marcus McBain

Last year we also had the most hours raced and if you counted backwards the most venues.
I think wera is second in those things. This year I think they have us in hours raced unless we count all classes. I am pretty sure as it sits we were 1st and 3rd. with tmgp being 4th.

this year we are way down from them in hours raced.

Regardless, when an endurance grid lines up in CMRA, it is "full"...everytime. That is pretty amazing.

Marcus

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen Weir, ysr612:

Quote:

Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
1) With the largest (measured by entries) endurance series in the country, why have the OEM's stayed away from the CMRA endurance series?

Marcus McBain

Last year we also had the most hours raced and if you counted backwards the most venues.
I think wera is second in those things. This year I think they have us in hours raced unless we count all classes. I am pretty sure as it sits we were 1st and 3rd. with tmgp being 4th.

this year we are way down from them in hours raced.

Regardless, when an endurance grid lines up in CMRA, it is "full"...everytime. That is pretty amazing.

Marcus

I have moved the post below from the earlier thread because it contains some of my thoughts on the subject of sanctioning body affiliation. This is a subject to which the BOD has given quite a bit of thought. The CMRA spends over $25,000/year in sanctioning fees (half of all of our membership fees are shared with the sanctioning body).
I can tell you that the number of races held on a weekend or the total number of hours raced is a decision made by the BOD, not the sanctioning body.
Years before CCS and Roger Edmundson and FUSA and Pat Murphy, WERA was a huge national organization. The year-end get together at Road Atlanta saw pits filled further than the eye could see. With the event of competition, fragmentation and now consolidation, we have two national club-level sanctioning bodies, CCS(FUSA) and WERA. Two year-end events (Daytona and Rd. Atlanta). Two rulebooks that are not compatable with each other (which precludes in most cases bikes from being legal to race in both organizations).
I have some very well defined ideas about what I think could be done to make this two-headed system work better for the racer. At the end of the day though it comes down with me to what is the best thing to do for CMRA members. Don't you believe that the only consideration is whether the CMRA is better off being affiliaterd with one sanctioning body or the other. You'll get bogged down in discussions of whether Daytona or Road A is the best year-end event. The issues are bigger and the stakes higher than that. Look rather at the cost benefits of the relationships: contingencies, timing/scoring systems, national event participation, advertising, PR, insurance rates, rule books and so on.
Brooks
posted March 24, 2003 12:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not going to contribute to a discussion regarding the relative merits of the two major sanctioning bodies. My experience is limited to being familiar with the status of the CMRA as an Independent club and a club sanctioned by CCS.
I have no personal agenda regarding the club's affiliation. I am 100% dedicated to the advancement of the Central Motorcycle Roadracing Association, period. If it can be shown that it is to the CMRA's advantage to be aligned with a particular organization, or not, I am in favor of pursuing that alignment. If such an alignment proves to be of less advantage than originally percieved, I am all for evaluating the current situation on its own merits.
The subject of whether to be affiliated with a sanctioning body, rather than pursuing an independent course, is one that can only be asked by a roadracing club that is as strong as the CMRA. Many, including former staff members, will tell you that the CMRA has never had a better program than it did as an Independent organization. The rulebook that Charles Brothers wrote is still recognizerd as the best in the club's history.
The basic question regarding whether or not it is a good thing to be affiliated with a national sanctioning body comes down to a value proposition. Does the Club get its money's worth from the relationship? The next would be, can the CMRA obtain and administer its own contingency program on par, or above that provided by the payment of sanctioning fees? An analysis of the cost of insurance premiums offered under a sanctioning agreement versus those available independently and other ancillery "benefits" have to be studied carefully.
What prompted my posting to this thread however, has nothing directly to do with my original disclaimer, above. I am confused by the statement, "The FUSA series coming/not coming to South Central region was a choice not made by FUSA so direct blame/ credit where it is due". OK, I am ready to "direct blame", to whom should it be directed? I have met with three different parties in the CCS office (Ft. Worth) to ask that a national race be scheduled in our region, at one of our tracks. Why is the other sanctioning organization able to schedule and promote several national events in a year in this region and we can't get a single one through CCS/FUSA? I thought we were coming close year before last when Bill Syfan visited TWS for the purpose of evaluating that facility for a national event. Last year inquiries were made about Hallett. Guess what? We were told that a national event could be scheduled at Hallett IF the CMRA would guarantee one half (50%) of the budget required to hold the races. The budget? Sixty-Thousand Dollars ($60,000). In the parlance of the industry that is what is called a "co-pro" (co-promoted) deal.
How many of you would like to see the CMRA commit to an obligation of $30,000 to have the honor of "hosting" a national event? Sure, it "might" have worked out OK from a financial standpoint. But the CMRA is a roadracing club, not a financial juggernaught that is in the business of speculating on promotions.
I don't know if this is what is referred to above as being "a choice not made by FUSA". If it is not, again I would ask where to assign the "blame/credit".
On kind of the same subject, our members are being told everything in a candid and factual manner. We publish BOD minutes (never been done before as far as I know), financial summaries (another one is being prepared for publication now) and advance discussions regarding such topics as the issues of club-paid medical insurance. Perhaps there has not been as much of a discussion regarding the pros/cons of the current sanctioning arrangement as there should have been. I will apologize for this and attempt to begin laying out the costs/benefits to the CMRA of maintaining these types of relationships.
Brooks

I have moved the post below from the earlier thread because it contains some of my thoughts on the subject of sanctioning body affiliation. This is a subject to which the BOD has given quite a bit of thought. The CMRA spends over $25,000/year in sanctioning fees (half of all of our membership fees are shared with the sanctioning body).
I can tell you that the number of races held on a weekend or the total number of hours raced is a decision made by the BOD, not the sanctioning body.
Years before CCS and Roger Edmundson and FUSA and Pat Murphy, WERA was a huge national organization. The year-end get together at Road Atlanta saw pits filled further than the eye could see. With the event of competition, fragmentation and now consolidation, we have two national club-level sanctioning bodies, CCS(FUSA) and WERA. Two year-end events (Daytona and Rd. Atlanta). Two rulebooks that are not compatable with each other (which precludes in most cases bikes from being legal to race in both organizations).
I have some very well defined ideas about what I think could be done to make this two-headed system work better for the racer. At the end of the day though it comes down with me to what is the best thing to do for CMRA members. Don't you believe that the only consideration is whether the CMRA is better off being affiliaterd with one sanctioning body or the other. You'll get bogged down in discussions of whether Daytona or Road A is the best year-end event. The issues are bigger and the stakes higher than that. Look rather at the cost benefits of the relationships: contingencies, timing/scoring systems, national event participation, advertising, PR, insurance rates, rule books and so on.
Brooks
posted March 24, 2003 12:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not going to contribute to a discussion regarding the relative merits of the two major sanctioning bodies. My experience is limited to being familiar with the status of the CMRA as an Independent club and a club sanctioned by CCS.
I have no personal agenda regarding the club's affiliation. I am 100% dedicated to the advancement of the Central Motorcycle Roadracing Association, period. If it can be shown that it is to the CMRA's advantage to be aligned with a particular organization, or not, I am in favor of pursuing that alignment. If such an alignment proves to be of less advantage than originally percieved, I am all for evaluating the current situation on its own merits.
The subject of whether to be affiliated with a sanctioning body, rather than pursuing an independent course, is one that can only be asked by a roadracing club that is as strong as the CMRA. Many, including former staff members, will tell you that the CMRA has never had a better program than it did as an Independent organization. The rulebook that Charles Brothers wrote is still recognizerd as the best in the club's history.
The basic question regarding whether or not it is a good thing to be affiliated with a national sanctioning body comes down to a value proposition. Does the Club get its money's worth from the relationship? The next would be, can the CMRA obtain and administer its own contingency program on par, or above that provided by the payment of sanctioning fees? An analysis of the cost of insurance premiums offered under a sanctioning agreement versus those available independently and other ancillery "benefits" have to be studied carefully.
What prompted my posting to this thread however, has nothing directly to do with my original disclaimer, above. I am confused by the statement, "The FUSA series coming/not coming to South Central region was a choice not made by FUSA so direct blame/ credit where it is due". OK, I am ready to "direct blame", to whom should it be directed? I have met with three different parties in the CCS office (Ft. Worth) to ask that a national race be scheduled in our region, at one of our tracks. Why is the other sanctioning organization able to schedule and promote several national events in a year in this region and we can't get a single one through CCS/FUSA? I thought we were coming close year before last when Bill Syfan visited TWS for the purpose of evaluating that facility for a national event. Last year inquiries were made about Hallett. Guess what? We were told that a national event could be scheduled at Hallett IF the CMRA would guarantee one half (50%) of the budget required to hold the races. The budget? Sixty-Thousand Dollars ($60,000). In the parlance of the industry that is what is called a "co-pro" (co-promoted) deal.
How many of you would like to see the CMRA commit to an obligation of $30,000 to have the honor of "hosting" a national event? Sure, it "might" have worked out OK from a financial standpoint. But the CMRA is a roadracing club, not a financial juggernaught that is in the business of speculating on promotions.
I don't know if this is what is referred to above as being "a choice not made by FUSA". If it is not, again I would ask where to assign the "blame/credit".
On kind of the same subject, our members are being told everything in a candid and factual manner. We publish BOD minutes (never been done before as far as I know), financial summaries (another one is being prepared for publication now) and advance discussions regarding such topics as the issues of club-paid medical insurance. Perhaps there has not been as much of a discussion regarding the pros/cons of the current sanctioning arrangement as there should have been. I will apologize for this and attempt to begin laying out the costs/benefits to the CMRA of maintaining these types of relationships.
Brooks

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Giesecke:
The top guys in the big classes worry about contingencies, most of us don't. Lower license fees and entries would be better for us.

I choose to let the BOD decide affiliation. I trust their judgment, and will race with the CMRA regardless of our parenting body, if there is one at all.
Having said that, I would like to comment on Jack's subject of contingency. This is not something just for the "top guys"! Using endurance as my primary example, let's look at just Suzuki money currently given out in another (inferior) endurance series.
Suzuki pays in superstock classes:
1st $1,000
2nd $750
3rd $500
4th $150
5th $100
Add on another $500 for the superbike class win!
This is not only for the fastest guys!! The team pitted next to us at TWS finished 5th in class in their FIRST EVER endurance race.
Bent Racing won $2300 in cash in one race last year, not including certificates!
I just wanted to give everyone and idea how contingency CAN help everyone, not just the top guys.
I am not comparing clubs so much as trying to show the depths of the ranks that could qualify for some extra cash. A team finishing consistently in the top five with the aforementioned type of payout could make an extra $1000 per year in endurance!
I am not condoning affiliation, nor independence; just more money [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]
The views expressed here are the personal views of Ty Stranger-Thorsen and do not necessarily represent the views of ICE Motorsports.
Thank you David Swarts for the disclaimer model.
Thank you BOD for your hard work and great decisions.
Ty

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Giesecke:
The top guys in the big classes worry about contingencies, most of us don't. Lower license fees and entries would be better for us.

I choose to let the BOD decide affiliation. I trust their judgment, and will race with the CMRA regardless of our parenting body, if there is one at all.
Having said that, I would like to comment on Jack's subject of contingency. This is not something just for the "top guys"! Using endurance as my primary example, let's look at just Suzuki money currently given out in another (inferior) endurance series.
Suzuki pays in superstock classes:
1st $1,000
2nd $750
3rd $500
4th $150
5th $100
Add on another $500 for the superbike class win!
This is not only for the fastest guys!! The team pitted next to us at TWS finished 5th in class in their FIRST EVER endurance race.
Bent Racing won $2300 in cash in one race last year, not including certificates!
I just wanted to give everyone and idea how contingency CAN help everyone, not just the top guys.
I am not comparing clubs so much as trying to show the depths of the ranks that could qualify for some extra cash. A team finishing consistently in the top five with the aforementioned type of payout could make an extra $1000 per year in endurance!
I am not condoning affiliation, nor independence; just more money [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]
The views expressed here are the personal views of Ty Stranger-Thorsen and do not necessarily represent the views of ICE Motorsports.
Thank you David Swarts for the disclaimer model.
Thank you BOD for your hard work and great decisions.
Ty

I think this is an excellent topic. Without all the verbage, what REALLY is the advantage of being affiliated w/CCS for the average CMRA racer?

Bottom line it for me....I'm slow.

With respect,
Mitchel

I think this is an excellent topic. Without all the verbage, what REALLY is the advantage of being affiliated w/CCS for the average CMRA racer?

Bottom line it for me....I'm slow.

With respect,
Mitchel

Ditto Mitch. I'm slow, I ride old equipment that is not subject to mfg'ers contingency, and I stand to (at best) maybe get $100/yr on tire certificates (though I am at a grand total of $0 so far for my career).

Dave

Ditto Mitch. I'm slow, I ride old equipment that is not subject to mfg'ers contingency, and I stand to (at best) maybe get $100/yr on tire certificates (though I am at a grand total of $0 so far for my career).

Dave

I think there are three classes of riders.

1) Serious Road Racers - This doesn't necessarily mean the "fastest" guys, but guys that like to mix it up with the best racers out there for contingency, competition, and fun.

2) Tweeners - They fall into the "serious" side whenever they have a good weekend and fall into the "hobbyist" whenever they have a bad one. They like to race, and are more than likely enticed to race by the aspect of possible $$$, competition, and fun.

3) Hobbyists - These are folks that have no dilusions of fame or fortune. These riders are happy to make it through a weekend without injuries as they are to be racing for 2, 5, or 10th place.

You have to look at what is in the club, BEFORE you look at what serves them best. On any given weekend your true representation is 60/40 Serious/Hobbyists (This also represents the tweeners given direction swing). With this said, obviously having a National or Money paying endurance races down here IS NOT the most important thing for the racers, BUT it is a serious consideration nonetheless.

With that said, I sincerely hope the BOD will remember that being on an island (independent organization), will force a 1/3 or our riders to travel outside our region to get any national exposure within racing. This $$$ to do so may prevent some from doing so in the first place.

I believe the CMRA has an obligation to meet ALL of the riders needs. With that said, I do believe there is an obligation to serve the better good of the community in the first place. This includes helping a national sanctioning body succeed in a complimentary manner that it expects the national sanctioning body to do so for the CMRA. It can be done, BUT both parties have to see this. I am not sure CCS or WERA are ready to work in that capacity either. There are no promises of success for anyone, but if we do not do something that helps promote consistency on a national basis so that this sport can grow as a whole, then we (the CMRA) is as much as a problem as the rest of the groups out there that think "our way or no way".

I have personally talked to several parties on this level within the industry. I think the CMRA represents a "Gold Nugget" to a potentional sanctioning body. With over 5,000 expected entries this year (not including endurance series), a National Sanctioning body should be trying to aggressively meet the CMRA's need as much as CMRA should be trying to fit into a national sanctioning body's requirements. Watch out though, add a little attitude and ego, and it all turns into a really nice s*it stew...

Marcus

I think there are three classes of riders.

1) Serious Road Racers - This doesn't necessarily mean the "fastest" guys, but guys that like to mix it up with the best racers out there for contingency, competition, and fun.

2) Tweeners - They fall into the "serious" side whenever they have a good weekend and fall into the "hobbyist" whenever they have a bad one. They like to race, and are more than likely enticed to race by the aspect of possible $$$, competition, and fun.

3) Hobbyists - These are folks that have no dilusions of fame or fortune. These riders are happy to make it through a weekend without injuries as they are to be racing for 2, 5, or 10th place.

You have to look at what is in the club, BEFORE you look at what serves them best. On any given weekend your true representation is 60/40 Serious/Hobbyists (This also represents the tweeners given direction swing). With this said, obviously having a National or Money paying endurance races down here IS NOT the most important thing for the racers, BUT it is a serious consideration nonetheless.

With that said, I sincerely hope the BOD will remember that being on an island (independent organization), will force a 1/3 or our riders to travel outside our region to get any national exposure within racing. This $$$ to do so may prevent some from doing so in the first place.

I believe the CMRA has an obligation to meet ALL of the riders needs. With that said, I do believe there is an obligation to serve the better good of the community in the first place. This includes helping a national sanctioning body succeed in a complimentary manner that it expects the national sanctioning body to do so for the CMRA. It can be done, BUT both parties have to see this. I am not sure CCS or WERA are ready to work in that capacity either. There are no promises of success for anyone, but if we do not do something that helps promote consistency on a national basis so that this sport can grow as a whole, then we (the CMRA) is as much as a problem as the rest of the groups out there that think "our way or no way".

I have personally talked to several parties on this level within the industry. I think the CMRA represents a "Gold Nugget" to a potentional sanctioning body. With over 5,000 expected entries this year (not including endurance series), a National Sanctioning body should be trying to aggressively meet the CMRA's need as much as CMRA should be trying to fit into a national sanctioning body's requirements. Watch out though, add a little attitude and ego, and it all turns into a really nice s*it stew...

Marcus

These all are my points.

First, I here alot of people say they want the
year end Daytona or Road A. but I believe less then 5% of the club attends either function.
On those grounds allone it is not worth giving away half of 90+% of our memberships money for a
benifit so few use.

Second, if they (our affiliate) cannot get us
dramaticly better insurance rates,
contengencies, etc. then we can do ourselves then whats the point? I didn't say just better, I said
DRAMATICLY better. Does paying $25K+ a year for
a $20-25K reduction in costs sound right? Why not
just keep the money at home and do it ourself?

Third, make no mistake. An independant club can do fine especially if it is large enough. Look at
WSMC or the AFM. WSMC has huge cash purses and
even has Toyota giving a truck for the championship in one of their classes. Thats
some pretty heavy stuff for a stand alone club.

Fourth, this is a club. (that was a period folks)
We (the CMRA) are here to provide motorcycle roadracing to all comers in the south central
region of the United States. Have we had some bad
*** talent come from our ranks? Yes. Do we have
some bad *** talent in our ranks? Yes. Are our
ranks made up by mostly bad *** talent? No. We
need to do whats right for everyone. Yes it may be better percieved by the powers that be when one of our riders with talent come from a nationaly affiliated organazation but that is very few and far between and doesn't do anything
for the masses.

I apreciate no one flaming this thread yet. I don't have the answers. I don't know all the facts. But I am interested in learning them.
This club is made up from our membership.
We have a representative government (the BOD)
who we elect to do whats in our best interest
and I truely believe that is what they do.

That is the reason I started this thread.
To tranfer this discusion that was in another thread to one of it's own becasue it is very
important and serious as Marcus pointed out.

I personaly believe if we can't get dramaticly better service from CCS/WERA then what we can
do on our own then whats the point?

BTW: I am not on the BOD, have any dealings with
the BOD or have any asperations to the BOD.
I am asking these questions out of my own curiosity.

These all are my points.

First, I here alot of people say they want the
year end Daytona or Road A. but I believe less then 5% of the club attends either function.
On those grounds allone it is not worth giving away half of 90+% of our memberships money for a
benifit so few use.

Second, if they (our affiliate) cannot get us
dramaticly better insurance rates,
contengencies, etc. then we can do ourselves then whats the point? I didn't say just better, I said
DRAMATICLY better. Does paying $25K+ a year for
a $20-25K reduction in costs sound right? Why not
just keep the money at home and do it ourself?

Third, make no mistake. An independant club can do fine especially if it is large enough. Look at
WSMC or the AFM. WSMC has huge cash purses and
even has Toyota giving a truck for the championship in one of their classes. Thats
some pretty heavy stuff for a stand alone club.

Fourth, this is a club. (that was a period folks)
We (the CMRA) are here to provide motorcycle roadracing to all comers in the south central
region of the United States. Have we had some bad
*** talent come from our ranks? Yes. Do we have
some bad *** talent in our ranks? Yes. Are our
ranks made up by mostly bad *** talent? No. We
need to do whats right for everyone. Yes it may be better percieved by the powers that be when one of our riders with talent come from a nationaly affiliated organazation but that is very few and far between and doesn't do anything
for the masses.

I apreciate no one flaming this thread yet. I don't have the answers. I don't know all the facts. But I am interested in learning them.
This club is made up from our membership.
We have a representative government (the BOD)
who we elect to do whats in our best interest
and I truely believe that is what they do.

That is the reason I started this thread.
To tranfer this discusion that was in another thread to one of it's own becasue it is very
important and serious as Marcus pointed out.

I personaly believe if we can't get dramaticly better service from CCS/WERA then what we can
do on our own then whats the point?

BTW: I am not on the BOD, have any dealings with
the BOD or have any asperations to the BOD.
I am asking these questions out of my own curiosity.

Damnt' Marcus!

Your not supposed to post a reply while I'm typing mine!

It takes me a while to get my thoughts straight.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Damnt' Marcus!

Your not supposed to post a reply while I'm typing mine!

It takes me a while to get my thoughts straight.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

As miserable as the WERA racer attendance appeared to be, WE HAD ALMOST 40 CMRA (CORRECTION: This should have originally read "WERA South Central" as only about 60% had CMRA licenses) racers at Road Atlanta last year. We had over 30 the year before.

Daytona is Daytona. It is the most unfair track in the country, but one EVERYONE should race it (Daytona) if they get a chance.

Marcus

As miserable as the WERA racer attendance appeared to be, WE HAD ALMOST 40 CMRA (CORRECTION: This should have originally read "WERA South Central" as only about 60% had CMRA licenses) racers at Road Atlanta last year. We had over 30 the year before.

Daytona is Daytona. It is the most unfair track in the country, but one EVERYONE should race it (Daytona) if they get a chance.

Marcus

How many liscenced racers do we have in the club?
500?
40 would be less then 10%.
How many were at Daytona?
Couldn't have been much more.
That is my point about the year end race.
I've heard people use that arguement that it is
needed but so few attend I don't think that is a legitamate arguement by itself or even should be weighted that much as one of many.

How many liscenced racers do we have in the club?
500?
40 would be less then 10%.
How many were at Daytona?
Couldn't have been much more.
That is my point about the year end race.
I've heard people use that arguement that it is
needed but so few attend I don't think that is a legitamate arguement by itself or even should be weighted that much as one of many.

Quote:

Originally posted by Emmett Dibble:
How many liscenced racers do we have in the club?
500?
40 would be less then 10%.
How many were at Daytona?
Couldn't have been much more.
That is my point about the year end race.
I've heard people use that arguement that it is
needed but so few attend I don't think that is a legitamate arguement by itself or even should be weighted that much as one of many.

I think there were 6 at Daytona this year and 9 last year.

600 entries is actually only about 200 racers (if even that many). If we have 500 (Active) racers I would be shocked.

Pretty impressive turnout for Daytona...

Quote:

Originally posted by Emmett Dibble:
How many liscenced racers do we have in the club?
500?
40 would be less then 10%.
How many were at Daytona?
Couldn't have been much more.
That is my point about the year end race.
I've heard people use that arguement that it is
needed but so few attend I don't think that is a legitamate arguement by itself or even should be weighted that much as one of many.

I think there were 6 at Daytona this year and 9 last year.

600 entries is actually only about 200 racers (if even that many). If we have 500 (Active) racers I would be shocked.

Pretty impressive turnout for Daytona...

I figured 500ish becasue you have guys that only show a couple times a year, guys who only
race mini or big bike endurance and guys who
buy a license and never use it that year.

Whoever is reading this I really would like to know.

Me - 500

Marcus - 200

(in my best Bob Barker voice)

"and the actual retail price is......."

9 at Daytona?

At 200 that is still only 10%.

I figured 500ish becasue you have guys that only show a couple times a year, guys who only
race mini or big bike endurance and guys who
buy a license and never use it that year.

Whoever is reading this I really would like to know.

Me - 500

Marcus - 200

(in my best Bob Barker voice)

"and the actual retail price is......."

9 at Daytona?

At 200 that is still only 10%.

we will call that 4.5% of 200 9 is 9%of 100

we will call that 4.5% of 200 9 is 9%of 100

as John Ulrich said nobody looks at club racing for talent. He was speaking of wera at that time. His remarks were something to the affect that the big teams all seem to think he pulls his talent out of thin air.

as John Ulrich said nobody looks at club racing for talent. He was speaking of wera at that time. His remarks were something to the affect that the big teams all seem to think he pulls his talent out of thin air.

Too much beer, math, language and visual
abilities impaired.

The same way I race!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

(with out the beer)

Too much beer, math, language and visual
abilities impaired.

The same way I race!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

(with out the beer)

Figure I'll chime in with my .02 on affiliation now that I'm back in the region and should actually see the track this year. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

$25k is a lot of duckies, and I have never picked up a magazine with CCS advertisements and seen much CMRA coverage.

WERA has their own thing going, but the club is already succesful without that affiliation, and in my opinion could continue to do so.

Questions that need to be asked.

1. Does CCS give any of the $25k back in purse money?
2. Has CCS actively found sponsorship or contingency for sprints/endurance?
3. Did CCS pay for our air fence?
4. Did CCS get us into any of our current tracks (are we able to race their due to affiliation)?
5. Would business relationships with current sponsors (big ones) suffer from a defection?
6. Would membership decline without affiliation?
7. Would race quality decline without affiliation?

I'm guessing the answers to these make spening $25k a year seem pretty silly.

I'm not a successful businessman, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

Mark

Figure I'll chime in with my .02 on affiliation now that I'm back in the region and should actually see the track this year. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

$25k is a lot of duckies, and I have never picked up a magazine with CCS advertisements and seen much CMRA coverage.

WERA has their own thing going, but the club is already succesful without that affiliation, and in my opinion could continue to do so.

Questions that need to be asked.

1. Does CCS give any of the $25k back in purse money?
2. Has CCS actively found sponsorship or contingency for sprints/endurance?
3. Did CCS pay for our air fence?
4. Did CCS get us into any of our current tracks (are we able to race their due to affiliation)?
5. Would business relationships with current sponsors (big ones) suffer from a defection?
6. Would membership decline without affiliation?
7. Would race quality decline without affiliation?

I'm guessing the answers to these make spening $25k a year seem pretty silly.

I'm not a successful businessman, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

Mark

there were a lot of ccs adds in rrw I don't know now I let my sub lapse because lack of local coverage.

there were a lot of ccs adds in rrw I don't know now I let my sub lapse because lack of local coverage.

1. Does CCS give any of the $25k back in purse money?
2. Has CCS actively found sponsorship or contingency for sprints/endurance?
3. Did CCS pay for our air fence?
4. Did CCS get us into any of our current tracks (are we able to race their due to affiliation)?
5. Would business relationships with current sponsors (big ones) suffer from a defection?
6. Would membership decline without affiliation?
7. Would race quality decline without affiliation?>>
>>
>>
1.Unless your poking fun I believe all of our current purse paying classes are sponsored by companies/groups we found/they found us. CCS doesn't send money back for purses, I don't believe.
2.We have contingency through them worked out through them. We could do the same thing
ourselves.
3.There again someone correct me if I'm wrong
but RRW sponsored, collented the money, and gave
us a portion of that fence and we bought the rest.
4.The only track that is new would be Cresson
and I don't think Jack Farr is going to turn away any form of club motorsport espesialy when a
good chuck are members of his track anyway.
5. I don't see why they should. It wouldn't be a defection. That implies switching sides. It
would be more like going freelance.
6. Obviously only a tiny fraction have taken the poll but I don't think anyone who wasn't about to quit/move anyway would stop racing with us.
7. It's already our show. If anything it could get better. More money/freedom.

Anyone care to shed more light or correct me?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

1. Does CCS give any of the $25k back in purse money?
2. Has CCS actively found sponsorship or contingency for sprints/endurance?
3. Did CCS pay for our air fence?
4. Did CCS get us into any of our current tracks (are we able to race their due to affiliation)?
5. Would business relationships with current sponsors (big ones) suffer from a defection?
6. Would membership decline without affiliation?
7. Would race quality decline without affiliation?>>
>>
>>
1.Unless your poking fun I believe all of our current purse paying classes are sponsored by companies/groups we found/they found us. CCS doesn't send money back for purses, I don't believe.
2.We have contingency through them worked out through them. We could do the same thing
ourselves.
3.There again someone correct me if I'm wrong
but RRW sponsored, collented the money, and gave
us a portion of that fence and we bought the rest.
4.The only track that is new would be Cresson
and I don't think Jack Farr is going to turn away any form of club motorsport espesialy when a
good chuck are members of his track anyway.
5. I don't see why they should. It wouldn't be a defection. That implies switching sides. It
would be more like going freelance.
6. Obviously only a tiny fraction have taken the poll but I don't think anyone who wasn't about to quit/move anyway would stop racing with us.
7. It's already our show. If anything it could get better. More money/freedom.

Anyone care to shed more light or correct me?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

<>

I can't remember ever seeing anything in RRW
for the CMRA affiliated with CCS advertisement that was anything than what they (RRW) put in the back under races schedules anyway for free.

<>

I can't remember ever seeing anything in RRW
for the CMRA affiliated with CCS advertisement that was anything than what they (RRW) put in the back under races schedules anyway for free.