Any speculation on how this will impact the race categories currently ruled by the 250cc Baby Ninja?
Kasasaki reveals 2013 model
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Any speculation on how this will impact the race categories currently ruled by the 250cc Baby Ninja?
Kasasaki reveals 2013 model
I'm interested to see the power numbers people get out of the things once some aftermarket parts come in. My guess is that they'll leave the old 250's way behind.
NOT A MINI!!!!!!
Originally Posted By: chriscorder325NOT A MINI!!!!!!
I'm sure you are right, but that doesn't mean I don't want to race one!
Great, a new toy i need to have. Thanks guys. Is there a waiting list for this thing or what? It looks neat.
Originally Posted By: Ron MearsAny speculation on how this will impact the race categories currently ruled by the 250cc Baby Ninja?
Kasasaki reveals 2013 model
I speculate it will have no effect on 250CC classes. mostly because its well over the class limit.
If it's allowed I see restrictions being set on it compared to the other bikes in it's "class"
yeah and 125cc two strokes allowed to bridge that gap. i don't like it.
Looks like a question for Walter and the BOD in putting together the 2013 rule book. I really love endurance racing my 250, and looking at the mini-endurance grids, it looks like lots of people share my enthusiasm.
As to a 300, I was just hoping for FI from this bike. I'm kind of worried that the displacement increase might be a real problem for us. Probably like lots of teams, I already have a 250, and I would not be not thrilled about the need to upgrade if the 300 is allowed in F4. But I'm sure this kind of thing has happened in the past and the club has found a way to achieve some parity while new technology come in.
I think the bigger concern for the club will probably be the fact that a 300 looks even less like a "mini" than a 250. Since there are already legitimate concerns about whether or not the 250 belongs in the "mini" classes given closing speed issues compared with some smaller bikes, I would be concerned that letting the 300 in might really be pushing it.
Well I hope that Walter pipes up sooner rather than later (i.e. doesn't wait for the full rulebook), as it certainly puts my current purchases and planning on hold. Not that I want the new 300, so much as I don't want to invest in an older, uncompetitive bike. It would obsolete a lot of bikes in the club now. Please says its a clubman-only bike. Or whatever is said, make it stable for a while, not just a season.
F3? We have 1,2,4-7. Oh and E1/2 SS
Ninja 250: 375lbs
One of the big boys: 225lbs
All up weight: 600lbs
Honda RS85: 160lbs
One of the young fast ones: 115lbs
All up weight: 275 lbs
The Ninja remains a paradox for me. I have always hated them because of the disparity in weight (the speed differential does not bother me) but the questions has always plagued me....did the new Ninjette save the mini program or kill it? We were smothered in tiny bikes and homebuilts and now we are smothered in those horrible cockroaches.
Honestly, the loss of OHR was the worst blow to our tiny bike grids. It ran off the large contingent of F5, 6, and 7 bikes.
YOU ARE WELCOME
Not to mention the economy Chris. Face it true mini bikes take time and money. A 250 is a Turn key 4stroke that makes it cheap and easy.
I dont disagree but, like the demise of the two stroke, I dont have to like it. :-)
Originally Posted By: Dennis KingNot to mention the economy Chris. Face it true mini bikes take time and money. A 250 is a Turn key 4stroke that makes it cheap and easy.
No doubt, but I think there are several families that would invest time and money in the smaller sprint and endurance bikes IF they didn't have concerns of their kids running with the much larger, heavier 250's. I mentioned this in a thread and was criticised as some thought I wanted to be gifted a trophy or championship. The point was, I am of the opinion that we have all but effectively ran the youngest racers out of the club along with their parents and their money with these 250's. People like to see some form of succes for their investment...success can be measured many ways, but taking even a good rider young(however young the rules state)on a 125framed/80 against our current good riders 0n the 250, you can predict the outcomes....look at the endurance series(or should I say the 250 series). You could argue that IF we have the same number of entires made up by the 250's then we are even, but I beg to differ. I get the biggest kick out of watching the youngest kids ride whatever bike it is their parents preparred for them, and so do other paying customers...like cousins, grandparents, friends and the like....and that means front gate sales. I don't dislike the 250's but why can't we have a club successful and proactive with both?
Oh, and BTW...this bike looks awesome, I'd love to ride one when you get it!
Derek
any of those kids/families could just as easily build an RS framed 65 and compete in the F5 if a trophy is their biggest concern...
with that being said, i think the 300 should not be allowed in F4...
Originally Posted By: John Blackany of those kids/families could just as easily build an RS framed 65 and compete in the F5 if a trophy is their biggest concern...
with that being said, i think the 300 should not be allowed in F4...
Why not allow them, think they'll push 250's out....that's never been done to any other class with a similar output. BTW, how are those 80's doing in mini endurance?
Derek
i would not allow them simply because they exceed the class CC limits...
BTW, our 2-stroke was on the box the first 2 rounds... had a podium by a country mile in the next one before the motor let go... then crashed out of the lead next race... after that, the motor got put in a sprint bike that still has the opportunity for a good class finish...
the other 2-Stroke has been on the box several times... been in contention at every other race until mechanicals and/or crashes have taken them out...
the class of the field is who is going to win the races no matter what bike they are on... those 250s are just much easier to race week in and week out, so, the majority of the field chooses to race them...
i guess i do not understand the question...
Derek, we do allright.
Kawasaki is claiming 39 HP! That's 11 more than last years.
I will hush after this one clarification: my complaint has nothing to do with competitiveness, that would be cowardly. It has to do with safety and wanting to see less old men in the series and more kids.
Also has to do with money Chris. It's about $1500 for the year to race a 250 in endurance. Show me how to do that on a big bike.
There were never less old men than kids in the mini series.
The problem now is there are even less kids than before.
Split the classes to Expert and Novice. Then some kids will get trophies.
Originally Posted By: Keith Hertell 11
Split the classes to Expert and Novice. Then some kids will get trophies.
I like that idea
Originally Posted By: Keith Hertell 11There were never less old men than kids in the mini series.
The problem now is there are even less kids than before.
Split the classes to Expert and Novice. Then some kids will get trophies.
Would a Senior/Junior class split be more effective? Just asking
Lets use the words Racing Adult(16+) and Racing minor(15-)
I would be opposed to the New 300 in the F4 or ESS simply because of the same reasons I was opposed to the RS chassis bikes being allowed into the ESS class. As Eric mentioned, horsepower claims from Kawasaki are 39. In stock form, that beats the modified horsepower claims of some of the 250's being at 32-35. Taking into consideration that the 300 will shed some pounds with race trim only(lights, brackets, pegs, stock skins, etc.), does the power to weight ratio thereafter concern anyone for the equality idea in the ESS class? In F4, it is simply outside of the rules. A restructuring of the class rules would need to be in order to allow the bike, and I really don't think the idea of that would be advantageous to anyone from a cost standpoint.
As far as the classes being a Novice/Expert split, I am not sure that would increase entries, but it would be interesting to test it in a trial race. Maybe at round one next season, run the schedule as it was this year, but add in one race that would have no adverse effect on the season points, run the classes at the same time but score them seperately.
John...that's why we call it endurance racing and another reason I don't think the 250's belong in the same class. Was your motor built to "keep-up" with 250's? Did crash occur because of pushing too hard? I've ridden both and a 125 framed cfr150 and had a blast on all three...went very fast on all three, but you don't have to do much to the 250 to make it competitive and endure BUT little kids cannot ride them their too big. Some parents don't want their kids on the same track with them...their too big! Older guys ride them because THEIR too big for smaller bikes, so this is an easy avenue for them(us).
You talk about all these "flashes" of brilliance, but as the record stands currently there have been 18 podium slots, and 4 of those occupied by 85's, two at the same track. By my account, there is only one in the top ten currently. I would argue it's not as a competitive format.
Corder, I'm certainly no coward but I do think they(250's) have an competitive advantage, especially in endurance racing and thats exactly why I think you see the results we have currently. And, like you, I think we have pushed a certain age group away from racing with us and that's very, very sad to see.
That bike and our attitude toward it's place in racing, in my opinion, has driven some away from racing and this club. In the same respect, it has brought some as well and I think that's fantastic.
I like the idea of the novice/expert split perhaps, and I'm sure there are some other ideas out there. I currently race with gentlemen that have boys learning to ride, but I can assure you mine won't ride a formula 4 bike of past with our current rules.
The 300 still looks like a great racing format, but where. Someone thread also had pics of a 350 KTM that looks outta this world!
Derek
the advantage the 250s have is that they are easy... the reason they are winning is that the faster riders are on them... if you can ride it, the RS bike is faster... if you can't ride it, the 250 will be faster... that has little to do with any flashes... it is just the long and the short of it...
our Mori is a pig compared to an RS bike... probably 30lbs heavier and way more frontal area... our motor popped because of a $5 dollar part... we crashed because we were racing... it really is that simple...
Originally Posted By: Keith Hertell 11There were never less old men than kids in the mini series.
The problem now is there are even less kids than before.
Split the classes to Expert and Novice. Then some kids will get trophies.
This makes the most sense to me.
Derek,
Need to clarify...people who fight to make classes fair are not cowardly. This is just fair. What I dont like is rule book racers who lobby all off season so they can bring a gun to a knife fight.
Well, if the pre-press numbers are any indication, I don't see how stock ECU and Exhaust alone are going to keep the 300s from running away from the 250s. 30% more power out of the box, and a good chunk of that still, even compared to a well set up 250. Darn, I'd already started buying parts for a 250 next year (I think we'll have an F5 bike for sale soon) but have put that on hold already. We really do need some clarification on this, sooner than later. This is as close as the club has to a spec class. so it affects it much more than any other class would affected by a single brand/model of bike change.
I feel for Walter. Sorry big guy.
Originally Posted By: Derek ThomasJohn...that's why we call it endurance racing and another reason I don't think the 250's belong in the same class. Was your motor built to "keep-up" with 250's? Did crash occur because of pushing too hard? I've ridden both and a 125 framed cfr150 and had a blast on all three...went very fast on all three, but you don't have to do much to the 250 to make it competitive and endure BUT little kids cannot ride them their too big. Some parents don't want their kids on the same track with them...their too big! Older guys ride them because THEIR too big for smaller bikes, so this is an easy avenue for them(us).
You talk about all these "flashes" of brilliance, but as the record stands currently there have been 18 podium slots, and 4 of those occupied by 85's, two at the same track. By my account, there is only one in the top ten currently. I would argue it's not as a competitive format.
Corder, I'm certainly no coward but I do think they(250's) have an competitive advantage, especially in endurance racing and thats exactly why I think you see the results we have currently. And, like you, I think we have pushed a certain age group away from racing with us and that's very, very sad to see.
That bike and our attitude toward it's place in racing, in my opinion, has driven some away from racing and this club. In the same respect, it has brought some as well and I think that's fantastic.
I like the idea of the novice/expert split perhaps, and I'm sure there are some other ideas out there. I currently race with gentlemen that have boys learning to ride, but I can assure you mine won't ride a formula 4 bike of past with our current rules.
The 300 still looks like a great racing format, but where. Someone thread also had pics of a 350 KTM that looks outta this world!
Derek
I would be the last person to blame the bike for my teams poor performance. It has been things like a spark plug cap poping off or a exhaust gas probe breaking and falling out of the exhaust causing catastrophic failure of the motor. Other than that, My bike will run with any bike on the grid if ridden by an equally skilled rider.
Originally Posted By: Ryan WarrenIt has been things like a spark plug cap poping off or a exhaust gas probe breaking and falling out of the exhaust causing catastrophic failure of the motor.
I'm told these kinds of things don't happen to the Ninja. Maybe that's your issue.
Originally Posted By: chriscorder325Derek,
Need to clarify...people who fight to make classes fair are not cowardly. This is just fair. What I dont like is rule book racers who lobby all off season so they can bring a gun to a knife fight.
heeeeeeey [img]<>/frown.gif[/img]
Originally Posted By: Jesse DavisOriginally Posted By: chriscorder325Derek,
Need to clarify...people who fight to make classes fair are not cowardly. This is just fair. What I dont like is rule book racers who lobby all off season so they can bring a gun to a knife fight.
heeeeeeey [img]<>/frown.gif[/img]
You get a pass for your building skills. Anybody who cobbles stuff together is a hero in my book. As a matter of fact, if I were a rich dude, both your new Duc and the 4sTZ you built would be in my garage....and I would be making offers for Lurch right and left.
cobbles!?
Originally Posted By: Ryan WarrenOriginally Posted By: Derek ThomasJohn...that's why we call it endurance racing and another reason I don't think the 250's belong in the same class. Was your motor built to "keep-up" with 250's? Did crash occur because of pushing too hard? I've ridden both and a 125 framed cfr150 and had a blast on all three...went very fast on all three, but you don't have to do much to the 250 to make it competitive and endure BUT little kids cannot ride them their too big. Some parents don't want their kids on the same track with them...their too big! Older guys ride them because THEIR too big for smaller bikes, so this is an easy avenue for them(us).
You talk about all these "flashes" of brilliance, but as the record stands currently there have been 18 podium slots, and 4 of those occupied by 85's, two at the same track. By my account, there is only one in the top ten currently. I would argue it's not as a competitive format.
Corder, I'm certainly no coward but I do think they(250's) have an competitive advantage, especially in endurance racing and thats exactly why I think you see the results we have currently. And, like you, I think we have pushed a certain age group away from racing with us and that's very, very sad to see.
That bike and our attitude toward it's place in racing, in my opinion, has driven some away from racing and this club. In the same respect, it has brought some as well and I think that's fantastic.
I like the idea of the novice/expert split perhaps, and I'm sure there are some other ideas out there. I currently race with gentlemen that have boys learning to ride, but I can assure you mine won't ride a formula 4 bike of past with our current rules.
The 300 still looks like a great racing format, but where. Someone thread also had pics of a 350 KTM that looks outta this world!
Derek
I would be the last person to blame the bike for my teams poor performance. It has been things like a spark plug cap poping off or a exhaust gas probe breaking and falling out of the exhaust causing catastrophic failure of the motor. Other than that, My bike will run with any bike on the grid if ridden by an equally skilled rider.
Ryan,
Thanks...this either adds to my arguement OR proves your maintenance program, or possibly engine builder(or both) stinks!
I don't want the 250's to go away, as they provide some great sprint racing. They also provide a great platform to attract new endurance racers who want best bang for thier buck. I SIMPLY DISAGREE THAT THEY(250's)SHOULD RACE WITH REMAINING F4 BIKES IN "MINI" ENDURANCE, even if they are an equal platform, I think they make some potential newcomers and parents shy away from our clubs "mini" racing.
Originally Posted By: Derek Thomas
I don't want the 250's to go away, as they provide some great sprint racing. They also provide a great platform to attract new endurance racers who want best bang for thier buck. I SIMPLY DISAGREE THAT THEY(250's)SHOULD RACE WITH REMAINING F4 BIKES IN "MINI" ENDURANCE, even if they are an equal platform, I think they make some potential newcomers and parents shy away from our clubs "mini" racing.
The 250s are, without a doubt the best bang for the buck in racing right now, especially endurance. If they are not going to be in the mini endurance where would you put them? Do you have a potential solution to the problem you have presented?
Yep, first of all I would place them in their own class. They have their own sprint race class AND they can run in F4 as well. Can F4 run in E SS? NO! At least not and be legal. Then I would classify them some other way in the "mini" endurance race. I'd also use someone elses idea with splitting the E ss into novice and expert. I think both of these ideas may bring back potential or possibly new customers. Bottom line is it certainly won't hurt anything...that's for sure. Your not going to lose customers, race time or anything else. It may bring entries to f4 and that could possibly lead to riders and parents feeling more comfortable moving a good young F4 rider into endurance with the 250's. I still would like to see the 250's on their own somehow, but my ideas would remove them from endurance(with more true mini's) which I don't think is beneficial to the club at this point, purely from a finacial aspect.
However,it would be possible to move the 250's to a solo...perhaps that's a way to go...not sure. Feature the 250 race more...throw them a bone(attempt maybe a class sponsorship with some $$)to lighten the ache of removing them from mini endurance. Heck I'd love to see some of our best racers on these machines and level the palying feild as much as possible...see who wins!
I looked back at results and except for the 2 totally bad [censored] 150's built by a mad scientist, since 2007 there have been no 80/85/92's( whatever is legal) win the overall. I don't think that's a coincidence.
We have all but excluded a certain subset of racers and racing families.....just look around the paddock!
OK, now go ahead and blast any and all my ideas...besides apparently I just want everyone to win, just like in our current societies 5 years old soccer games.....right John?
Derek
You would see more RS 2-strokes in the club if there was something for them to race other than F4. We wouldn't have sold ours but it didn't make sense to keep it with only one class to race.
Kawi drops the 250 for the 300 ?
What cheap, dependable, fairly trouble free bike can we race next ?
The CBR250R ?
Sooner or later the EX250 bikes & parts will dry up [img]<>/frown.gif[/img]
Tried to find a replacement engine for a reasonable price lately ?
In the CRA we had an "Ultralight" class where you could run GS500 (air cooled twin), Ninja 250, SRX 600, RD350 etc. The GS500 is a great, small, cheaper than ninja, bike to run with similiar HP compared to the newer ninjas.
I know...I'm Old!
CMRA needs a spec class for non-racers to be able to get into racing on a budget. Ninja 300 is the perfect platform. No mods, just a bellypan, go race.
No.
Those are basically RZ's
I'd prefer the RD350 since that was my 1st racebike and I still have it. [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]
I wasn't saying have a spec rd class. I was just using that as an example of how fierce a spec class can be.