2 wave aborted start question

Hypothetical scenerio.

Let's say there is a two wave start, expert and novice.

The experts go away just fine, except a rider stalls. The starter does not see this rider who stalled and goes through the starting procedure for the novice wave. As soon as the light goes off it comes on. Two riders take off only to be waved by the starter to stop. Being young riders they stop in confusement. As they have seen the light come back on but know it went off also. They then turn around on the grid and go to head back to there starting position only to have the race then start while they are going against a hot track. (race started)

A.) what should the riders have done? My advice to my rider was once you see the light go off continue on and do not stop. To me that is a race start. We are talking about expensive motorcycles and starts burn up clutches, plus the dangers of riders behind you running into you. Not to mention you are likely to have to start well after the rest of the riders even though you were on the front row. Which could cost you tire money, contingency money, and championship points.

B.) What is the correct scenerio for the race at this point?

again hypothetical scnerio. Just curious as to what the correct actions of the riders and the officals should be.

In case it ever happens ;)

Ah, so that's what happened. I only saw the animated aftermath;).

What did the starter do with the board?? The board in your hypothetical scenerio was lowered, which has been gone over in riders meetings as an aborted start..Riders have been instructed to watch the board along with the lights and the procedures... So here it is again "2min board, 1min board, sideways then lights go off is a start"..."if its aborted the board in any position will be lowered and the lights WILL go off, this is not a start"

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Originally Posted by Danny Dominguez

What did the starter do with the board?? The board in your hypothetical scenerio was lowered, which has been gone over in riders meetings as an aborted start..Riders have been instructed to watch the board along with the lights and the procedures... So here it is again "2min board, 1min board, sideways then lights go off is a start"..."if its aborted the board in any position will be lowered and the lights WILL go off, this is not a start"

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I was at row 20 and had no clue what was going on, but I saw the board go down and figured there was a problem. That pesky riders meeting, it should be made mandatory..........

There you go...the 2 riders in the scenerio jumped the start...sorry Dean

Danny thanks for that elaboration. So in my hypothetical scenerio two riders who "jumped" the start were then waved and stopped on the grid, which was then restarted while they were going against the flow of traffic. Any 'light' to be shed on this?

The lights never turned off. The starter dropped the board and signaled to the stalled rider to get out of the way. But the lights were never turned off. Two riders in the row ahead of me left while the lights were still lit. They were not waved or signaled to stop. The starter pointed to the light showing that it was still red after the two riders jumped. What made them jump is when the starter dropped the board and signaled to the rider to move. One jumped and the other followed.

While they were coming back I was waiting to see if they were going to get back in their grid position and then all of sudden riders were flying by me while I was sitting there. I felt dumb.

On a sidenote, I think I heard and it was demonstrated by Ryan as so at the MSRH riders meeting that the abort can only occur at the 2 board. Once the 1 board is shown, the race will start. Aborting from the 1 board is problematic as I've participated in starts where the board just started moving to sideways when the lights went out. Race aborts shouldn't operate on a hair trigger. If the abort can occur on a 1 board then the lights shouldn't go out any sooner than the board going completely sideways.

PS: Sounds like Walter now knows whose names to call at the next rider's meeting. ;)

rtfrb

In my races the 1 board droping and the lights going off happened at the same time.

In the event of an aborted start the best thing to do is to not turn off the lights. In a start with a flag you wouldnt abort the race by waving the flag. Lights going off is the same as waving the flag.

After I see the 2 board all I see is the light. Nothing else. That light goes off I am gonna go. Same with the flag. Once I see that 2 board all I am watching is that flag.

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Originally Posted by Dennis King

rtfrb

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I dont understand all these stupid letters the kids on the internet are using these days.

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Originally Posted by Chris Coffey

I dont understand all these stupid letters the kids on the internet are using these days.

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You never know with Dennis, but after a google search seems it means "read the effing rulebook."

I'd say if 2 people out of 45+ riders jump, then the fault lies with those two riders.

Well.. I was one of the ones that missed the start from the 2nd wave. I didn't think they would allow them to re-grid (rule book) but since they were coming back toward us instead of moving off directly left I thought I was just stupid (wow there is an opening) and that they were going to be allowed to re-grid for some reason.. so I missed the start looking at them coming back toward us.. live and learn.. maybe the key thing is in this situation and riders are being asked to move to make sure it is directly sideways and pointed in the track direction..and a complete restart from initial flag-to-light so the process is identical to a normal start... it's easy to 2nd guess things after the fact.. in the moment mistakes happen.. we learn.. improve.. and move on.. looking forward to the next race. When I think about all the issues with riders going down, due to track surface conditions, and how well the afternoon ended up being I am still in awe of the CMRA organization operations.

Regards,

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Originally Posted by Dean Dufrene

Hypothetical scenerio....

..... They then turn around on the grid and go to head back to there starting position only to have the race then start while they are going against a hot track. (race started)....

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PREFACE - in both the 'hypothetical' and 'real' world I'm buried in registration so I rarely see what happens on the track (I wasn't a witness to this 'hypothetical'). Also, I'm not an "on track" official so my questions in this regard are genuine, for my own education....

HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO -
1) racers roll to the grid after warm-up lap
2) grid is 'set' and starter begins start procedure
3) first wave launches

>>> FIRST QUESTION - at that point (a wave has launched and is 'on the track') the track is "HOT", is it not? ["yes" or "no" answer]

HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO CONTINUED -
4) some second wave riders are signaled to stop by starter (a signal they apparently understand, but being "young riders" and suffering some "confusement" they don't know what to do after understanding the 'stop')
5) suffering "confusement" the riders "turn around on the grid"....

>>> SECOND QUESTION PREFACE - I've long had the understanding that a (if not "The") cardinal rule, pounded into students at all schools, is that one Never Never Never runs counter-flow on a hot track; that regardless of the degree of "confusement" one suffers, this cardinal rule shall never be violated.

>>> SECOND QUESTION - Is there in fact ANY scenario where a rider should ever contemplate running counter-flow on a hot track? ["yes" or "no" answer; if "yes", I'd appreciate an explanation for my continuing education]


In case it is not clear, my questions have to do only with making sure I have a correct understanding in regard to what I've long held as a (The) cardinal rule regarding riding counter-flow; I'm not repeating the larger Q already asked about this hypothetical ("What should the riders have done?"), I'm just wanting clarification about one step in the scenario which appears to me to illustrate an action they "should not have done", regardless of the degree of "confusement".

TIA

If you jump a start,my advise will always be "pin it and try to catch the 1st wave" ..then take your stop and go or whatever penalty is levied with a smile. I am very curious to know if the 2 were told/motioned/directed to go counter race on a hot grid. this is the ONLY issue I have with the scenerio....weeeelllllll maybe a little with the smack afterwards..but mainly the counter race no no..

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Originally Posted by Danny Dominguez

If you jump a start,my advise will always be "pin it and try to catch the 1st wave" ..then take your stop and go or whatever penalty is levied with a smile. I am very curious to know if the 2 were told/motioned/directed to go counter race on a hot grid. this is the ONLY issue I have with the scenerio....weeeelllllll maybe a little with the smack afterwards..but mainly the counter race no no..

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I didn't see anyone signal to them to turn around which is why I was surprised the race started with them coming towards us. They were on the left hand side of the grid but coming towards us.

2013 CMRA Rule Book 1-7-13

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Originally Posted by Section 3.9 of the rule book

Race Start with Starting Lights... If multiple waves are indicated on the grid sheet, the race starts for only the first wave when the red lights first go OFF. When the first wave has passed the Starter the #2 board will be displayed, the red lights will go ON, and the procedure described in the previous section repeated until all waves have departed.

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...Penalties for jumping the start are described in Section 7...

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Originally Posted by Section 3.10 of the rule book

On Track Regulations:
All travel on the racetrack and pit lane will be one-way, in one direction. Riders must not travel backwards on the racetrack unless explicitly instructed to do so by race officials. Violators will be fined and/or penalized.

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Originally Posted by Section 7.2 of the rule book

Infractions
Jumping the Start
A minimum of two CMRA Officials must call a jumped start. In a sprint or endurance race, the offending rider or team will be notified via a “Meatball Flag” at start/finish signifying they have been assessed a stop and go penalty.... Definition of a jumped start: Any movement after the 1 board has been displayed and prior to the Green Flag[red lights going out].

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So the way I read it if you jump the start and you know it, haul *** for two laps and take your stop and go, get back out and haul some more and hope you can make it up.

Jay was one of the riders to go when he saw the lights go out. FYI, he was at the riders meeting. He has never jumped a start. I know he gets good starts, so I watch the lights. They went out, and several other people saw them go out as well. I think what was unclear was the fact that the starter was motioning with the card to either Jay and the other rider in the second wave, or at the stalled rider in the first wave. This is where the confusion came in, for Jay at least. I can't speak for the other rider. Jay thought the starter was motioning at him, so he pulled off the actual starting grid on to the hot pit lane, and was going to re-grid. As he and the other rider cleared the actual starting grid area, the entire grid was released. He sat there for a few seconds and watched everyone go by in disgust with his hand in the air, and wondered what was going on. He and the other rider then took off and proceeded with their race. He was able to work through the pack and ended up 5th. It hurt us on contingency, but most importantly it could have serious consequences for us in the points. I do not feel that he was in any danger because he was off the grid. It was just a very unfortunate occurrence.

I was in so called confusion of this start and i thought maybe the riders would be allowed back in line then the lights went out so I took off, as I was leaving the line i looked back to see If I was the only one who left but I was not the whole field left also.

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Originally Posted by Chris Coffey

I dont understand all these stupid letters the kids on the internet are using these days.

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Chris, these are great sites for that stuff -

http://www.acronymfinder.com/
http://www.urbandictionary.com/

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Originally Posted by Chris Coffey

In the event of an aborted start the best thing to do is to not turn off the lights. In a start with a flag you wouldnt abort the race by waving the flag. Lights going off is the same as waving the flag.

After I see the 2 board all I see is the light. Nothing else. That light goes off I am gonna go. Same with the flag. Once I see that 2 board all I am watching is that flag.

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Those were precisely my thoughts at the MSRH riders meeting when it was explained how the lights were going to work. Made no sense at all for the lights to be turned off if the race start was to be aborted (dropped board or not), especially when the lights going out was the signal for the race to start.



I stood there in the riders meeting thinking the best way to handle an aborted start when using these lights would be for the starter to leave the lights on and simply lower the board and raise a red flag to signal that the start has been aborted.

at MSRH ,Walter explained it one way friday, and on saturday he explained the way its done now IIRC.

surely someone has vid of this "confusion"...
if i ever jump the start(unlikely since i can barely leave) i aint stopping till i see the spaghetti and meatball flag :D

I appreciate everyone's input into this thread. The reason is because it was defintely a mess. I know the officials in the CMRA are very qualified to do their jobs. It is one of (if not THE) best racing org in the country. This just needs serious consideration.

Some points I would like to add:
1) in the above scenerio, the lights went out and came back on. I seen it with my own two eyes. The entire day the 1 board went sideways and the lights were almost instantaneously turned off. Once the one board goes sideways and the lights go off there is not aborted start. It is a start and a race to the finish. If the start is to be aborted, should it not be before the one board goes sideways? Or at least before the light goes off? I believe the other rider in the first row rolled and stopped. Take into consideration the two riders come from dirt and drag racing, both known for being good starters. They did not jump.

2) I am not sure who the starter was waving at but the two riders who left when the lights went out stopped because of this. If it was me, I would do what Danny said. or would I? I mean the why else would he be waving? And there was a short pause, the riders threw their hands up as if saying, "The lights went off"



Maybe there is not perfect answer. I just ask the CMRA to look into the current starting procedure as it is somewhat of a cluster right now. How can an official really know if anyone jumps? They can't watch the lights and the grid. Is some sort of audible tone in the works? Would it not be best to go back to the flags until this is implemented?

As Jimmy said, this cost riders money and points. I wish we could protest for a redo at the next TWS round. I think that would be fair.

1) I do not believe Pit Lane (AT TWS ONLY), where we start ONLY, is considered a "hot track" area.

2) I'm curious if the hand held red-light switch in the starters hand is a momentary switch. Meaning, he has to push it in to engage the lights and if he lifts his finger, they turn off. If so, it may be a good idea to rewire this switch.

ALL PIT LANES ARE CONSIDERED A HOT TRACK. The only exceptions (and I hate calling them exceptions) are COLD pit lane at TWS and ECR. (behind the secondary concrete walls.)

This seems pretty simple to dispute whether the lights were on or off, or went off and came back on....
With as many people that run GoPro and other cameras, who's got the footage?!?

IMO, with an aborted start, the starter should bring the 2 min board back up, and (if needed), step down from the ladder, with the lights still on. I believe most, if not all, would realize something has gone wrong when the 2 min board is brought back up.

Which 'hypothetical' race was this?

I raced my first race in #7 (superstock A) and it was my first time at TWS. I saw a couple riders stopped but didn't know why, as I was near the back of the grid and went around them......I was just focused on getting out of the grid and racing. I didn't know if they were stalled or what...

I really wasn't looking at what they were doing if they were not taking off.

I don't want everyone to miss the main point, which is the current starting procedure and contingencies need to be thoroughly reviewed.

Video


http://youtu.be/yVlRCNwfhNY

http://youtu.be/yVlRCNwfhNY

Sooo the lights never went out and two people screwed up their start. Mistakes on their parts live and learn. I didn't see anything wrong with what happened on the officials part. It was clear that he was motioning to the stalled rider to get out of the way, the two novices were in front of the expert and hence didn't see that.

On'y thing that could be debated is what did the board say when the stalled rider raised his hand if there was enough time to take care of it before the start and a proper re over could have been done.

I can't even see the lights in the video!! Even in 1080, and after watching it a dozen times. I did see the starter waiving the card prior to Jay's start, and shortly thereafter. Jay saw both, and that is why he moved off the track and was going to re-grid. We need to do away the card or the lights!

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Originally Posted by David Napier

Video


http://youtu.be/yVlRCNwfhNY

http://youtu.be/yVlRCNwfhNY

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Whoahhh! Those 2 just turned around - on their own - and went AGAINST race direction?!

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Originally Posted by James Newton

I can't even see the lights in the video!! Even in 1080, and after watching it a dozen times. I did see the starter waiving the card prior to Jay's start, and shortly thereafter. Jay saw both, and that is why he moved off the track and was going to re-grid. We need to do away the card or the lights!

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Here are the lights and they never went out.

http://www.wforiders.com/Temp/Capture2.PNG

You can see when Jay and Chris leave the starter points to the lights with the card to indicate they were still lit.

It's plain as day. The lights never went out. Rider error.
/thread.
-Cody

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Originally Posted by Dean Dufrene

I don't want everyone to miss the main point, which is the current starting procedure and contingencies need to be thoroughly reviewed.

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After seeing the video I don't think anything needs to be reviewed. It was rider error. The lights never went out therefore the two novice should have never left the line.

The only thing I could see is that the expert start could/should have been aborted

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Originally Posted by Rule book: Section 3.9 Sprint Race Start Procedures; Pg11

...If a rider has a mechanical problem they must raise their hand and wave it vigorously, at which point the Starter may lower the #1 board until the problem is resolved.

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Originally Posted by Dennis King

After seeing the video I don't think anything needs to be reviewed. It was rider error. The lights never went out therefore the two novice should have never left the line.

The only thing I could see is that the expert start could/should have been aborted

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Hence the 2nd wave should have been aborted!! "Plain as day" Why motion with the card. A second official should have been on the track immediately with a red flag. Has anyone noticed that TWO BIKES in the first wave had issues? The lights did blink briefly at :30.5 into the video. I have had reviewed it more than you can ever imagine!!! You can clearly see me in the red hoodie between the two red track entry barriers watching the lights next to the person in the brown jacket. At roughly :31.5, Jay comes into frame straight up and down on his bike because of the waive off.

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Originally Posted by Frank Roberts

Whoahhh! Those 2 just turned around - on their own - and went AGAINST race direction?!

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Wow! Lucky they didn't hurt themselves and anyone else.

Oh come on!! They did nothing different than the two "EXPERTS", except try to re-grid because of what they thought was a directive from the starter!!!

If you jump the start, don't you just continue around the racetrack - racing - until/if you get the meatball flag and proceed accordingly...? I don't see why they would turn around, not knowing if the rest of the grid behind them was being released or delayed. So, they jumped the start for the novice wave and THEN they thought they were signaled to move off grid with the stalled rider? It looks like they just did it on their own...is that not correct?

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Originally Posted by Frank Roberts

If you jump the start, don't you just continue around the racetrack - racing - until/if you get the meatball flag and proceed accordingly...? I don't see why they would turn around, not knowing if the rest of the grid behind them was being released or delayed. So, they jumped the start for the novice wave and THEN they thought they were signaled to move off grid with the stalled rider? It looks like they just did it on their own...is that not correct?

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You know what, I'm done this discussion. Rest assured though, in the next race, if those lights go out, Jay will not stop!! Oh, and I will have definitive proof.

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Originally Posted by James Newton

Oh come on!! They did nothing different than the two "EXPERTS", except try to re-grid because of what they thought was a directive from the starter!!!

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Not sure if I understand this clearly...If you jump the start (or think you did), don't you just continue around the racetrack - racing - until/if you get the meatball flag and proceed accordingly...? I don't see why they would turn around, not knowing if the rest of the grid behind them was being released or delayed. So, they jumped the start for the novice wave and THEN they thought they were signaled to move off grid with the stalled rider? It looks like they just did it on their own...is that not correct?

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Originally Posted by James Newton

Oh come on!! They did nothing different than the two "EXPERTS", except try to re-grid because of what they thought was a directive from the starter!!!

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The one expert moved to the side immediately which is good. The second expert tried to fix the problem and moved to the side after being instructed to do so, neither of them went counter race direction. Both experts were past the line of the cone which is "out of bounds" as far as the transponder loop goes so if any bike crosses those cones they won't be scored therefore that was the best place for them to be.

I looked that the video on the big screen and went frame by frame from when the lights become visible after the experts get outta the way to when the they go off for the race start they do not go off. I seems all the lights are wired in series so if one goes out they all would have to go out. Looking at the area of time you mentioned it the lights do not go out. the ones on the right hand side "appear" to go out but it is simply the camera bike moving and the way the camera moves. However the lights on the left hand side do not change at all, meaning all the lights were still on. Even so that event happens AFTER the bikes begin to move and well after the two riders reacted which would be 1/4-1 second before the movement even began.

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Originally Posted by James Newton

You know what, I'm done this discussion. Rest assured though, in the next race, if those lights go out, Jay will not stop!! Oh, and I will have definitive proof.

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I'm just trying to understand. For future reference. Not attacking your interpretation.... IF they were signaled, that's one thing. IF the lights went out, that's one thing. But if the lights DID go out (or he thought they did), what made him stop?? Light out means race....right?

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Originally Posted by James Newton

You know what, I'm done this discussion. Rest assured though, in the next race, if those lights go out, Jay will not stop!! Oh, and I will have definitive proof.

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James I have no dog in this fight, you and your whole family is awesome and a blast to talk to. I myself am simply using my resources and stating what I see. Even if the lights did go out, he jumped the start, etc, etc Jay should not have stopped in the first place he should have continued to race and waited for dinner. No where in the rule book or even by word of mouth have I heard that jumping the start then stopping you can stop and re-grid
Under no circumstances should they have gone counter race on what was potentially a hot track. If other in the field had gone with them and the two stopped they could have been potentially struck but other riders for stopping without warning and going counter race.

Ok, not done yet. The starter was obviously motioning to someone to move off in the video. Who? First wave or second? How can the second wave know who? Even IF they did jump the start. They were obviously well within stopping distance of seeing the waive off, and well before the motioning starter. They did what they thought they were being DIRECTED to do by a RACE OFFICIAL!!! Had they been put at the last row and a re-start been implemented, I and Jay would have been fine with that because he could have made that up easily.

There where no problems with the equipment or the procedures. The two riders that jumped simply made a mistake plain and simple. Case closed!

Interesting.... In the court of law, at least from my pc, I cannot confirm nor deny that the lights went off. Not the main focus of my thread here.

Let's openly discuss the reason the rulebook was not followed. Clearly the rider in the back had his hand up waving. The board should have then been lowered, he moved aside and then the race start procedure commence.

What is obvious in this video (Thanks Dave) is the fact that a stalled rider in wave 1 was the cause of this incident. I know it was expert/novice waves, but novices are paying their hard earned money as well as the experts and surely deserve the rules to be followed in the rulebook, as well as have to follow them themselves.

I have no choice but to accept the race directors response that their is nothing wrong with the equipment or procedures, (still needs an audible tone for jumped starts, this would have solved all the issues in this case) but this incident was clearly something that cost two riders valuble points and money. Hopefully, this is taken into consideration by the officials.

I need to point out several things.

1) There are several posts in this thread that seem to insinuate that the two riders in question are blatant rule breakers with no concern for the safety of the other riders on the grid. That is simply NOT true! I do not for one second think that either rider would purposely do anything to endanger their fellow riders.

2) From where I stand the start procedures outlined in the rulebook were follow correctly. The title to this thread lends to the confusion. The start in question was not in any way, shape, form, or fashion aborted. It was simply delayed while the stalled riders cleared the grid.

3) An audible tone will soon be added but it will only be broadcast over the control channel. This is so the grid staff can focus on their assigned rows and not have to position themselves so they can see both the lights and the grid. I'm not sure how this would have solved any issues with this start.

4) To say that this or any other incident cost anyone valuable points or money is simply not true. One thing I have learned in my 23 years as a rider and official is that there no guarantees in racing. Any points or money that are up for grabs are just that, up for grabs until the checkered flag flies.