Was reading that Motogp is going to have a new MotoE series in 2019. Curious what is the CMRA's position on electric motorcycles and what class, if any, would they be legal for?
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Was reading that Motogp is going to have a new MotoE series in 2019. Curious what is the CMRA's position on electric motorcycles and what class, if any, would they be legal for?
Wondered that myself. I suspect it would take awhile to index them. Might make sense to begin allowing them in the rulebook, if only in Formula classes at first.
I wanna see allowances for sidecars!
If you can get one of these bikes to last a practice session and a race I'll be stunned. Ridden hard they either run out of juice quickly or overheat the batteries.
We are open to the idea of including e-bikes in our program. To date no e-bikes have been presented for CMRA competition. When the time comes we will find a place for e-bikes to compete in the CMRA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Chahin
Doesn't Kyle Fox have one of these?
I do. An Energica Ego. It's amazingly fun to have full torque on demand. And Dugger's hypothesis doesn't hold up to my (admittedly road based) testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Orr
Bring it out, let's see. Based on what I've seen out of every other electric vehicle, I say it can't finish 20 laps at Cresson at a 1:25 pace or better without running out of battery or going into limp mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Fox
She's too pretty (and costly) for me to bring to the track. I crash too much. Should probably sign up for some rider coaching, if someone knows a good organization. ;)
But it's the road version of the spec bike for the new Moto E class for MotoGP. I bought it on the assumption that the teams and riders signing up for MotoE had done their homework.
What other electric vehicles are you basing your assertions on?
Ty Howard is great! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Fox
They did, but it doesn't change the physical realities of the bike or the technology at this time. It's 600lbs, has limited power storage, and riding it hard you throw away a lot of that power on the brakes, or overheat the batteries with excessive regen. The issue is really the batteries more than anything with electric vehicles; the power density and duty cycle just isn't there.Quote:
I bought it on the assumption that the teams and riders signing up for MotoE had done their homework.
Brammo and Tesla. The latter has never made it a full lap around a racetrack with a professional driver without going into limp mode to my knowledge.Quote:
What other electric vehicles are you basing your assertions on?
For what it's worth, the Formula E open wheel cars do a mid-race vehicle swap to get around the range issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Fox
Very cool, unfortunately this will add fuel (no pun intended) to environmentalists' argument that Laguna should be an electric-only track.
Tesla’s history of shutting down early is based on the 3phase asynchronous motor in the Model S and X, not the battery over heating or losing charge. The model 3 has a permanent magnet motor which does not suffer from this problem and people run it at the track all the time, in fact Tesla has a track mode for the M3 now. The problem with the model 3 is the stock brakes you can literally be metal to metal after 4 laps at a spirited pace.
So I’d say if the battery can handle the amp draw then as long as you have the right motor the bike should do fine
Good to see the progress with the Teslas. A co-worker just got a dual-motor Model 3. he loves it. Range sucks though unless you drive like a grandmother -- we are doing sales calls in the greater NYC area today and driving slow so we can make it between calls and charging stations.
Really nice car though. Incredibly nice.
I'm more than happy to eat my words. I wanna see one do something other than a single lap at an upright pace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Fox
Two club level races at Cresson would be ~34 miles.
I will be curious to see how many laps are in the Moto E race if they come to COTA with it. My guess is less than 8, and maybe just 6.
The TT Zero race runs 1 lap which is 37 miles and change. So, it would be pretty interesting to see how an electric bike would handle a similar distance but a very different track environment! Don't think energica runs in the tt zero though.
My colleague has a Model 3, very base. Incredibly fast. Never ridden in an S
The MotoE rules just came out. 10 laps per race, no bike swaps. Pure spec bikes that are almost exactly the same as the street version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dugger
My dual motor Tesla 3 got 240 miles on my drive from Austin to msrh for the last round. That was traveling at 80/85 on the freeway and not at all holding back on acceleration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dugger
At COTA? That's ~40 miles. Impressive really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Fox
The FIM didn't differentiate by track - http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2018/0...etition/249159. But they are always free to adjust as the season goes. It only shows that the teams and FIM believe the bikes can race full out for 10 laps. It'll be fun to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dugger
My Energica gets any 85-90 miles on the road, riding decent street pace, but not dragging knee by any means.
FWIW the TT zero guys can't go full throttle for the entire run on the mountain course. Also, with the current motogp rules those bikes can't make a whole race at full power with the fuel limits currently in place. so motogp/FIM is already used to programing and throttling back the bikes to make sure they complete the race, adapting that to electric bikes with help from the TTzero and other data shouldn't be all that hard. For reference, the fastest lap of the TTzero the first year in 2010 that was 100% privateer teams was a 23:22; since then professional team/sponsors like Mugen have entered bikes and the record this year was 18:34. The lap records for 1000 and 600cc bikes are 16:42 and 17:31
The biggest hurdle will be battery power and heat late race. As the battery voltage drops during the race you'll still be asking for the same power to the motors, less volts with the same watts means higher amperage, higher amperage means more heat and more cooling required of the battery and motor. In the big Tesla a fully charge battery is about 400V and can provide 450kW to the motors which is 1,125amps. At the lower stages of battery (10-15%) its around 340v. If the motors are commanding the same 450kW then you now have 1,323amps. One of two things happens, the battery overheats or the motor overheats (or both.) In the case of the Tesla Model S and X it's the motors and the computer limits the the amount of power at low states of charge and prolonged full throttle applications, Regardless of car/bike or type of motor they will all face this issue and need to deal with additional cooling and/or reduced power in the later stages of the race.
... and for practicality purposes, we of course aren't even talking about the equipment required to make an ordinary club level race day or even track day work with one of these bikes. Professionally, I'm sure they are using the big-track garage power between sessions, but for us, it's going to mean ~10kwh generators running near full-tilt in the paddock for charging.
...or bring a few spare batteries. Problem solved. E is the wave of the present!
This is great info, thanks Dennis. Was not aware of the heating issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis King
Irrelevant to have a big generator since the bike only has a 3kw charger, so a standard generator would charge from 0-100% in about 3.5hrs. but that just points out the issues of how these batteries charge. They may take the full 3kw at the beginning but that will slowly taper around the last 10%. Like Josh said the spare battery would be best if it were ever feasible. I'd be interested to see someone bring one out for a session on Friday just to see how they perform, there's no clutch or transmission so it's all in the throttle, and hoping the computer controls everything :lol: .Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dugger
The bike mentioned earlier is a permanent magnet motor so little worry about overheating and puts out 145hp and 148tq (from 0 RPM.) With a 107kw motor and 11.7kwh battery the bike you could go from 100-0% in 6.5 minutes at full throttle assuming nothing overheats, I have no idea what the average throttle usage is over the course of a lap but you'd need to average 50% to make a race at Cresson then get a push back to the pits. Use of regenerative braking could extend the range 30-50% and might provide the bit it needs to make it. The MotoE bikes have a 90% bigger battery then the road version.
Telsa actually uses the air conditioner to cool the battery and motors. if you're ever walking by a car at a supercharger and it sounds like you walked into a server room it's the fans and A/C cooling the batteries while pumping up to 120kw into the packs. On the performance models, Tesla has a "max power" mode where they use the heater to warm up the battery and lower the electrical resistance, and use the A/C to cool the motors which allows more power output and staves off the overheating issue the 3 phase motors are known for. This is a hot topic in the EV crowd and referred to as active cooling. The Nissan Leaf does not have active cooling so if the battery is cold in winter you get crap range, and in the summers the 100+ weather overcooks the batteries over time, Nissan settled a lawsuit after a bunch of people in Arizona had batteries failing way too early. They run best around 105-113 degrees but if it's already 100 out (or 115+ in AZ) then the battery can quickly overheat and power reduced to try and save it. For the average person all the EV 'problems' don't exist, but they do exist on some level and it'll just take time to solve them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Chahin
AHRMA has been running an extremely successful E bike series for the last 5 years. Most sprints are 6-8 laps depending on the venue and managing your resources is part of the fun.