I am an expert poster on this forum. It's all about the numbers. I promise that's the last one of the day. :)
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I am an expert poster on this forum. It's all about the numbers. I promise that's the last one of the day. :)
I personally believe that the system we have in place now works just fine.
Sweet baby jebus, I duck of for a few hours to work and this place goes to the sh"$$er. We've got sandbaggers, plural since I see a few of them, and Cody is doing track days instead of racing, totally cool, and is in no way bitter about being bumped, Proler is still a troler, Adams is.....hell I don't know, and at some point we started bartering for cuddle fish and squid. Sweet.
Nonsense, anarchy and chaos on the forum?! Never!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasey Lewis
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Originally Posted by David Proler
I think you should just pull out all the stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lackey
Well, heck.. I'll post it here.. did anyone find a blue "bubba" water bottle @ MSRH? (would have been Sunday or later)? Thanks! (seriously, I lost the bottle there)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Caruso
Ah. The voice of moderation and reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Henke
...so boring.
Cody has an excellent point and I'm glad the BoD followed his logic to its ultimate conclusion by providing the maximum safety to all racers. Let's say the novice C superstock grid is made up of 40 racers and Cody is one of those. Now taking some conservative estimates, let's assume half those racers, 20 racers, cannot keep up with Cody. Of those 20 racers, let's say half, 10 racers, are very competitive and would rather crash than let Cody get away from them. By promoting Cody, the BoD just runs a greater risk of having 1 racer suffer a frame tearing, engine breaking crash compared to 10 such crashes. That, my friends, is what they call a win on the safety committee.
:slap: :headshake: I'm sorry Cody, that was not an excellent point and I would strongly advise you let your wife proofread and approve everything you post. She must be the logical one in the family. ;P The next time you're at the Texas Tornado Boot Camp, you should spend some time at the range practicing drawing from the holster, so you don't shoot yourself in the foot. :)
Those are clear. And, high proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael De Simone
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Originally Posted by Jim Dugger
I hear they are huge in Japan.
Even in Japan, they are still small.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca Caudle
This is well put Yorke, and thank you for the mention. I hope you can do well enough to get on the list for next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorke Oldfather
I think the Rider Index and automatic promotion works incredibly well. In fact, I think it works so well that it eradicates the need to entertain any protest petitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Walker
There are some wide-ranging opinions expressed in this thread - some agree with me and some don't. I still have concerns that the current system is open to manipulation when protests are handled like this. I'd like to put something together in writing, so it can be discussed at a BoD meeting, but I follow up with that offline.
Thanks everyone for the input. <3
The points system for any rider that has been reclassified is prob the best idea.
i like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by robert duncan
That would keep everyone honest
Interesting thread.
Overall, I'm not so much a fan of the Novice/Expert system because I think it's a completely arbitrary division. Its tricky to divide the bar roughly between the midpoint of the club, and it's hard to do well.
A great example would be this past weekend in Houston where the winner of Superstock C novice was every bit as fast as the winner of Heavyweight Twins Expert, despite the latter only being eligible for the A classes, where the Novice winner ran decidedly better times. This is not a bike/class issue. This is an issue of a novices being faster than experts despite similar or lesser hardware, which is at least peculiar!
Having been part of the system for a bit, I mostly agree what we have works well, it's the "what we have" I struggle with. I think it encourages sandbagging, other various kinds of bad behavior, and like the handicap concept in golf is just disingenuous to reality. It's arbitrary, it's hard to get right; the traditional means of entry into racing where it was really necessary has been largely replaced by a track day community that well-prepares racers in a way inconceivable 20 years ago when the novice/expert system evolved, and novices were really novices.
I haven't totally thought this through, but one I idea I've noodled is the concept of heats. So, in SSC, there's two races, just like today, but 1st place in the second race is actually "40th" (or whatever) overall. Points determine grids, just like today, and if you want to have a chance of finishing in the top 40, you better race your butt off and get in that grid, because if you don't, your "win" is only good for last place + 1 in the previous race. Overall is all that matters, and there's no win for coming in at the top of the second race. In a way, nothing about what the club does today changes, except there's only one winner per class type, not unlike how we do lightweight classes. Newer riders stay in the second heat until they demonstrate a consistency through points achievement to advance to the first heat in a given class.
The system we have has been with us a long time -- it's stood that test of time, too. That in itself should give us some caution regarding change. But, I also think the nature of club racing, and how riders come to it has changed, and it's worth a look and some thought around new ideas. These ideas might not make the cut, but it's worth doing.
I don't think you can ever completely legislate yourself out of sandbagging. Its an inevitable artifact of any tiered competition structure, and the minute you create classes so that a broader range of people can compete, there's going to be a small percentage of people who don't get why the bottom classes exist. If you spend any time around competitive youth sports, you'll see the same thing.
I think you just have to depend on the public data, and trust it to always reveal evidence of the fact.
And on the upside: Sandbaggers by definition are faster, and so they should just serve to help Novices be faster, right?
Jim you are too smart.You are one of those people I always walk away from after talking to thinking I'm a dumb #%*
Quoting yours, but it also applies to other comments in this thread addressing fast novices:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dugger
Per Section 1.2 of the rulebook, it states that the CMRA may ask people to voluntarily move up to expert during the season. Has this person you referred to been asked to move up? If not, why not? Based on other comments in this thread, was anyone asked to move up after MSRH?
We should start another club. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by robert duncan
He was asked to move up, and by move up I mean give back his yellow shirt!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Smith
Edit: I mean Bryan who dipped into the 39's. Not sure about the other guy who's winning, Umayr.
One thing I would like to add, for me personally, I don't lose any sleep over this issue. I've finally gotten myself to the sharper end of the novice pack this year and at that point you'll be racing those people soon enough either way. Might as well start chasing them now so I can keep improving!
There seems like a clear distinction between a guy like Bryan Evans who, despite doing trackdays like a full time job (jealous), only started racing at the very end of 2015 in Houston and true sandbaggers. There will always be guys that come out of nowhere to dominate for the reasons that Dugger articulated. Is that sandbagging? It's definitely not gaming the system. He's new and should have an opportunity to dominate in novice. But one of my main reasons to be in novice is to pick up speed and skill from the guys ahead of me. I only race in the B's and C's, i'm gridded up only against other novices. There are still 4-5 people that I can pick up a good bit of speed from in any of my races. If it got to the point where I was winning every race, I'd be doing myself a disservice by not bumping up to expert. Who else is there to learn from in novice if I were to be leading my races?
What is undeniably sandbagging, and quite disgraceful in my eyes, are they guys that got bumped then protested and stick around as a novice to dominate. Where is the fun in that? They clearly have the skill to be in the front pack and in one case in particular are racing against experts anyway (in a wave start race). I really like Duncan's idea of keeping track of bumped riders and forcing them to move up to expert. A penalty of not having points in the rookie expert series because they chose to sandbag in novice before getting force bumped mid season seems appropriate.
So my questions are as follows.
1. It's my first year racing as a Novice sprinting with the exception of 2 rain races at the last round of 2015. So since I just got my yellow shirt off and won in SBBNV, SBCNV, and F40 MWNV and run 40's and 39's at MSRH does that makes me a Sandbagger???
2. If I'm asked to voluntarily move up to Expert and I decline due to I feel the need to work on my racecraft to be a safer racer for my self and other experts before I move up, I am a Sandbagger???
3. If I were to move up during my first year to expert if asked, do my points go with me? Do I start at very back of grids due to not having started in the expert races?
4. So being a talented rider/racer in my classes is a bad thing? I started riding just over 1.5 years ago, so wining in my novice classes makes me a Sandbagger?
Maybe the Expert's not meeting the criteria for expert status, or running sub standard expert class times, need to be bumped down or you know "practice makes perfect"? I practice and get as much seat time I can manage. I have a goal to WIN WIN WIN! It is a mind set I have, and with this I work hard to meet my goals. I'm just trying to shed some light on this.
Bryan's a bit of an anomaly, he's a member at MSRH and rides there all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Coles
I'm just going to put my head down and race!!! All this is nothing I want playing in my head and UN-focusing me from my goals. I don't like feeling that people think I am sandbagging, but really don't care! I have no plans on bumping until I feel my race craft is at expert levels, and at the end of the season I' am promoted, I will not protest it like others do! But I will probably not bump during the season being my true first year of Racing.
Sorry, didn't mean to reignite the flames in this thread.
No Bryan, no one is calling you a sandbagger. If you go re-read what lead to this point in the thread it was discussing folks who were refusing promotion at the end of the year.
No Bryan I don't believe you are in this category.its your first real year.
I think you should enjoy it,and try and dominate every race .just when bumped do the right thing you will be a great addition to the expert ranks even now.
Thanks, maybe I read into everything wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Coles
Bryan, you are a good friend and your hard work is admirable. I'm going to offer my answers to your questions as I see it
1. Just do your best and no one can call you a sandbagger.
2. There's no replacement for seat time and race experience. Everyone should spend the time in novice to hone their racecraft before moving up when they have done just that.
3. Refer to the rulebook. If no mention of it, then no points ...
4. Refer to answer 1.
I wish every racer nothing but the best. Good luck this season! I know your drive to win will give you much success.
Thanks, I have no issues with experts, mentored and ride with some of the best in CMRA that have taught me so much in a short time. I still need the close racing experiences in a group to be safer. If you watch my video's you will see my failure to commit 100% and timidness on some easy over takes. I just have a lot to work on this season, but even if I'm not promoted, I will ask to be next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by robert duncan
I'll chime in since I'm someone who is technically affected by someone sandbagging (aka: I'm not real fast). I've been doing track days for about two year. MSRH last month was my first weekend without a yellow jersey. I'm not running the times Bryan Evans does, despite what seems like a roughly similar amount of track experience. I don't consider that sandbagging at all. I don't think that someone should be forced to bump to expert in their first year (or maybe two) of racing just because they are fast. That robs them of their chance to race for a championship win. Maybe it'll be next year, maybe never, but if at some point I worked my way up to being capable of running a dominant novice championship, I would be pissed if I was forced into the expert class instead of having my chance I had worked for. Sitting around for years, always finishing at or near the top shouldn't be allowed but working your way forward, regardless of if that learning curve takes 2 races or 5 years, is what it's about. Clearly lap times should play a notable role in determining who should be in which class, but looking only at that one factor would be a mistake and unfair to the racer.
Thanks, bud. Dude you have been working your butt off hard too, and it is showing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Hodges
Great insite!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Fricke
Bryans a little sensitive, he got pranked yesterday! Lol Bryan definitely doesn't fit into the conversation of "sandbagging".
You be a funny guy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorke Oldfather
..NOW...if you come out and throw down sub :50s at tws... :17s~18s at cresson.. and :19~20s at Hallet...THEN.. I might say differently. lol.. while I agree a novice season is warranted for any first year sprinter..if your laying down those times in your first year and half of riding at those tracks then you have a gift and need to get out of the novice pack.
:lol::lol::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Evans
Under stood. TWS I'm CloseQuote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Palmore
:+1:Quote:
Originally Posted by John Redford
Never. Running a race series is a crappy, low-margin business. And, I love the CMRA, anyway, and know I could not do better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Orr
Someone comments on how dumb you make them feel and this is what flies right over your head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dugger
Not another race club. The, "Jim Dugger makes me feel stupid" club.
I'm in!!
No...nobody is saying you are a sandbagger here. I hope you continue to have good results and do well - you are clearly very fast and naturally talented being able to run those times so quickly. I look forward to seeing you race more throughout the year. The difference would be if you had previously been automatically promoted for expert-level performance, then protested and then demoted back down to novice, then dominated again. That's a totally different thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Evans
This is different to protesting a promotion, then coming back and winning everything in novice. If it's your first year racing and you are very very fast, I don't think it's fair to promote people to expert, just because they are fast in their first season. As folks have mentioned, this is your first year, and you have every right to stay in Novice and try and win your Novice championship. Protesting an automatic promotion and coming back and winning as a novice...that's the problem we are trying to address here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Fricke
I'll say it again...banning protests from automatically promoted riders is the only fair solution to everyone here.
I totally agree. I didn't really feel like the general comments were talking about riders in Bryan's position, but he seemed concerned that maybe they were. A lot of the comments are from expert racers so I figured I would share my not expert/not winning novice races perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert McNaught
I want to protest this trophy. Certainly I've made it into the top 10 by now. What's the process for that?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...38a2b023bf.jpg
LOL. David, you must've been sandbagging to get that. Saving up all your posts and thoughts during 2014 to go on a posting spree in 2015. I gotta ask tho...where's my participation trophy? BoD? How come he gets a trophy and I don't?
Back home when I played golf as a kid, we would use the term "bandit" to refer to someone with a handicap of 25 and would then come to a big tournament and run a scratch round, making a net score of 45 for 18 holes. I prefer the term bandit.
Now, I'm going to lower the tone of this thread by posting a funny meme:
http://i.imgur.com/t5FPiV9.jpg
Can I get a keyboard cowboy trophy??? I like what Joe says about thumb thuggin'.
This is only my 1,664th post since March of 2013. 1.52 per day average. Time to raise the bar.