2016 New Expert List

[Michael McGehee]

Rab,
I agree completely. Sandbagging is bad for the sport. I will bring up Terence specifically because when he was promoted at the end of the 2014 season, I spoke to him at the banquet to congratulate him for the promotion. He said he was protesting it, and knew it was sandbagging but oh well. Let's look at his 2014 stats: 9 podiums including 1 race win. Then he raced exactly 5 races in 2015 to "stay under the radar" and avoid promotion. 2015 stats: out of 5 races, 4 podiums including 1 race win. That seems good enough, and his lap times in the 2016 round 1 are fast enough, to play around with the experts. Intentionally "gaming" the system to stay a novice and spoil the season for people that actually deserve to belong there is poor sportsmanship.

[Dennis King]

Good info Dennis...it's not a perfect system I know, but I think at least when there's a protest, this list should be updated with the info on what happened. To me, looking from outside, it does seem a little unfair to some folks who are up and coming novices. And, yes, I'm aware that it's not an automatic demotion when you protest.

I could agree that if someone protests it could be placed next to their name on this list they protested and yea or ney on the decision. I don't think it would be a good idea as to posting their excuse. For instance a few years ago someone had a novice championship locked before the last round then had a life altering crash and protested their bump probably not the best idea to offer up that info.

There have been a handful of bad protest decisions since I've been paying attention, I think overall the board and Walter do a great job on the protest applications, there's really only so much they can do. Don't have the rule book in front of me and if it's not in there perhaps the board should look into amending the protest rule to allow them to bump a protester mid-season if there is a preponderance of the evidence that shows they're sand bagging, although prepare for the can of worms that could open.

[Joe Lopez]

Ahhh.....
Didn't realize they were deleted if wanted to stay novice.
I guess that's why i swore 787 was on the initial expert list.
Or, i could be wrong.
I have had quiet a few Gloria's Signature Margaritas since then.

As far *** Terrance COONS, yeah....he's fa-fa-fa-faast!
(Inside joke for those who drink with me after the races.)
Not sure what his reason was but, he was on a BMW 1000RR that ended up getting stolen sometime that 2014 season.
I think he ended up using Jessicas small Kawasaki 636 for the 2015 season.
Now, he on his R-Juan.
(Nuff said.)
Like i said, not sure what his reasons were.
But, seems legit.

Also, Rab has a valid point as well.
If you're going to "call out" any group for any reason.....call out all.
You know they're are several people on this board who like to be all "thumb thuggin'" on here and say a word or two.
Just playing devils advocate.

Side note: Does anyone ever get approached in person at the track like they do on here?
Just a thought.

Cheerio!

[Rab McNaught]

I could agree that if someone protests it could be placed next to their name on this list they protested and yea or ney on the decision. I don't think it would be a good idea as to posting their excuse. For instance a few years ago someone had a novice championship locked before the last round then had a life altering crash and protested their bump probably not the best idea to offer up that info.

There have been a handful of bad protest decisions since I've been paying attention, I think overall the board and Walter do a great job on the protest applications, there's really only so much they can do. Don't have the rule book in front of me and if it's not in there perhaps the board should look into amending the protest rule to allow them to bump a protester mid-season if there is a preponderance of the evidence that shows they're sand bagging, although prepare for the can of worms that could open.

Yeah, I was just thinking one solution is to have protest petitions made available to the CMRA membership on the forum...riders would be less likely to protest if their justification was made available to the entire CMRA membership - this would help limit intentional sandbagging, because it clearly does happen, and is hidden. Right now as it works, we don't know what the reasons are for protests and the justification for the decision to demote someone...as a member, we just see the name disappearing from the expert list like magic.

You bring up a good point that there are protest petitions that may justify some privacy...however, I think in the example, people would be understanding if someone did have a life-altering crash and decided to protest - it wouldn't be a secret on why someone protested anyway in this case. You could either have privacy for all, like it is now, or less privacy for all, but it would need to be consistent across all petitions, whatever the justification. If someone I knew had a life-altering crash and decided to protest a bump to expert because it would impact their riding significantly in the next season, I wouldn't lose respect for them, or for CMRA for approving the demotion.

I however, lose respect for anyone that protests without a decent reason, or simply "isn't comfortable" or "didn't win enough races" (I've actually heard through gossip that this has been used before as a protest justification!!!). If you think about it, there isn't actually a lot of reasons for legitimately protesting expert status, and it should be extremely rare...maybe not even 1 rider per year. If someone hadn't raced for 10 years, and wanted to come back as a novice...kinda makes sense, and we all see that. However, people that are borderline or, as suggested earlier, are riding "over their head" as a novice simply wouldn't be off expert pace by that much the next season - they might end up 10th in an expert race, rather than 2nd in a novice race (then the hashtags and selfies don't look so good ) . We see in the waved starts just how much overlap there is between experts and novices - a large overlap to say the least.

Yes, I kinda imagined that this post would open a can of worms (worms drowning in sand jajajaja), but think it warrants a discussion, hopefully with a tangible process change to make this more transparent.

Another suggestion I've heard is that removing contingency for novices could help stop this. I think overall we need riders to have more reasons to be an expert, rather than more reasons to be a novice. Unfortunately, we see new experts quitting because they suddenly can't podium races when they become an expert. Some of this is cultural "everybody gets a trophy", and everybody needs to feel like they are winning, like Charlie Sheen.

Overall, IMHU(uneducated)O there's not enough transparency to limit protests to the absolute minimum, and there's not enough push back from the CMRA (this is easy for me to say, but of course, no members aside from BoD see the protest petitions) to deny protest petitions from riders that are clearly fast enough to be expert, and there's more reasons to remain a novice and sandbag than to become a middle-of-the pack expert. I know there is a fine line here between retaining novices as racers and making it fair for novices...there is no magic bullet here...but I think there are things that can be done to make this more fair, and limit poor sportsmanship.

[Rab McNaught]

Ahhh.....
Didn't realize they were deleted if wanted to stay novice.
I guess that's why i swore 787 was on the initial expert list.
Or, i could be wrong.
I have had quiet a few Gloria's Signature Margaritas since then.

As far *** Terrance COONS, yeah....he's fa-fa-fa-faast!
(Inside joke for those who drink with me after the races.)
Not sure what his reason was but, he was on a BMW 1000RR that ended up getting stolen sometime that 2014 season.
I think he ended up using Jessicas small Kawasaki 636 for the 2015 season.
Now, he on his R-Juan.
(Nuff said.)
Like i said, not sure what his reasons were.
But, seems legit.

Also, Rab has a valid point as well.
If you're going to "call out" any group for any reason.....call out all.
You know they're are several people on this board who like to be all "thumb thuggin'" on here and say a word or two.
Just playing devils advocate.

Side note: Does anyone ever get approached in person at the track like they do on here?
Just a thought.

Cheerio!

True true true ma man. Yes, 787 was one that disappeared, and the only one I noticed. I don't know if there was any others, since you can't see these changes, and you have to assume from a protest - one that isn't seen, and riders are not informed about it (though they are for bumps).

I did note that Terence had previously protested the year before after being promoted by CMRA. My posting isn't specifically aimed at any particular rider, but more so at process around the names disappearing. However, I'm sure folks reading this have some ideas on riders who stood out as doing rather well in novice races at MSRH and had previously disappeared from a new expert list, whether this year or last. For me, on the approaching at the track comment, I wouldn't say anything in a forum that I wouldn't say to someone in person. Actually, with me, I'm probably more likely to be direct in person, though, of course, respectfully. It always pays to speak your mind in person.

I think riders could do with being able to understand the reasons for a protest petition...it would minimize gossip around it. Like I mentioned before, there are legitimate reasons for protests...illness for example, but these are pretty rare, actually should be extremely rare - I mentioned illness, but if you are that ill where you can't ride to a pace close to where you rode before, maybe you shouldnt be riding (anyone have any other legitimate reasons? - I can't think of any more). With the rider index, it's difficult for someone not fast enough to be accidentally promoted before they are ready to be safe in an expert race. This would be better than having whispering of "so and so protested, but we don't know why".

[Dennis King]

I could get on board with seeing an edit to the expert list that says protested (approved/denied) instead of removing their name altogether. This would provide the opportunity for someone to notice and if they can present data to Walter and the board that would change outcome then they could file that in with the board. I would not agree with posting the riders protest application/reason at all.

I don't think removing contingency would help as much as it would hurt. Honestly look back and think of how many people protested and sandbagged to stay novice vs how many people benefit from contingency overall as a Novice. Maybe a hand full? No one likes the I didn't win enough races excuse but how many of those people actually got to stay novice. I'd like to think Walter sees right through it but I'm sure one or two slip through, but again how many?

Some people just aren't mature enough to be experts and will ride over their head as a novice and place well, put them in an expert field they may simply crash out trying to keep up to the much faster pace. Or worse take some one with them which then you'll have people complaining they shouldn't be in the expert field and should have never been promoted. Again, I think Walter and the board do a great job filtering those people before the list ever comes out and filtering a second time with the protests, but like any system it's not perfect.

I would like to see a mid season bump for protested novices discussed added to the rules if it becomes "obvious" the rider is baggin it. That way if there is a sandbaggin rider they will have to weigh the option of doing great(trophies and contingency) and risk getting a mid season bump or not doing so great, possibly not run some rounds, and lose contingency and trophies to avoid being bumped. Hopefully in either case the "cheating protesters" that slip through are never off the hook.

[David Glen]

Rab,
I agree completely. Sandbagging is bad for the sport. I will bring up Terence specifically because when he was promoted at the end of the 2014 season, I spoke to him at the banquet to congratulate him for the promotion. He said he was protesting it, and knew it was sandbagging but oh well. Let's look at his 2014 stats: 9 podiums including 1 race win. Then he raced exactly 5 races in 2015 to "stay under the radar" and avoid promotion. 2015 stats: out of 5 races, 4 podiums including 1 race win. That seems good enough, and his lap times in the 2016 round 1 are fast enough, to play around with the experts. Intentionally "gaming" the system to stay a novice and spoil the season for people that actually deserve to belong there is poor sportsmanship.

BOD? curious 9 podiums and 1 race win an was able to protest and y'all approved?

and I agree 100% with Rob, reasons should be made public.

[Allen Dye]

BOD? curious 9 podiums and 1 race win an was able to protest and y'all approved?

and I agree 100% with Rob, reasons should be made public.

I wasn't on the BOD on this decision, so I can't speak to it. I do think that we've got some people who "work" the system to their advantage in setting themselves up for a nice novice run. Admittedly it IS hard to tell. I know a few of the very fast novices who have worked hard to be fast...I'm suspicious where the speed came from others. I'd like to see some mechanisms put in place to prevent sandbagging. Not much we can do this year I don't think, but as the only novice BOD member, it's something that I get to witness. Novices who have lap times that fall within the top 3-5 experts shouldn't be gridding with the novice group. That's my opinion only.

[Bryan Hodges]

Ahhh.....
Didn't realize they were deleted if wanted to stay novice.
I guess that's why i swore 787 was on the initial expert list.
Or, i could be wrong.
I have had quiet a few Gloria's Signature Margaritas since then.

I asked 787 on 2-13-16 why he still had yellow number plates on his bike. He only raced 2 rounds last season. Yes, that was 10 races and he did well in those, but I could see a few valid reasons for protest. That deserves a pass in my book.

[Michael De Simone]

Well it can go both ways, there certainly are those sandbaggers who find a good enough excuse to stay novice. On the flip side there are those who are bumped who maybe shouldn't have been. Walters son placed in quite a few races and wasn't bumped Walter protested that 14ish year old kid had no business racing against experts and wasn't mature enough to ride with them. And it's a very valid point, therefore he stayed novice another year, won a lot of races and was then promoted. Trey was never given the initial bump to end up on the expert list because Walter is on the inside and explained it before Treys name was ever on the list. Not everyone one else has that inside connection so their kid or their own adult name may end up on the list.

The protest allows them the chance to explain, hey, I was riding over my head all season just to get 5th, another year novice will allow me to tone it down Or I'll be changing platforms from SV to 1000 and the experts aren't the place to learn this, etc, etc. Yes there are plenty of sandbaggers that will do whatever they can to get trophies and contingency but there are also plenty of riders who show up to every round and simply don't crash and end in the points, are they expert material? maybe not but they should have the chance to explain what was obvious to them and the people making the decision didn't have a clue about. The whole protest process is there just for those people.

not sure if you realize, you aren't automatically kept novice if you protest either. There are plenty of people who protested and get shot down some way more vocal about it then others. Coffey, Henke, etc.

For the record, Trey was still eligible for Jr. Motard until his birthday last year, his last novice season. Now that he is not Jr. Motard eligible, he is an expert.