What do you get from an affiliation?

[Bryan Norton]

"My main concern is the high turn-over in this sport does not promote mature forward looking decisions necessarily. Yes we have an elected BOD with several members that represent the different facets of racing. The last time the CMRA did a split, it was not a democratic process, the board made a decision and it was done. I was chucked out of the meeting after 5 minutes with no one (BOD Members) wanting to discuss any of the compelling reasons. We can't let this happen again. I made the point that a BBS referendum is not accurate. I also brought up specific examples of how racers disproportionately get representation. "

Actually, for two years in a row a survey was passed out. The decision to split was made from the results of that survey. The questions regarding splitting from WERA were inside the survey, but not highlighted in such a way as to alert the affiliate.

I can't speak for the BoD at the time because I was not on it, but I recall the survey.

[Bryan Norton]

"My main concern is the high turn-over in this sport does not promote mature forward looking decisions necessarily. Yes we have an elected BOD with several members that represent the different facets of racing. The last time the CMRA did a split, it was not a democratic process, the board made a decision and it was done. I was chucked out of the meeting after 5 minutes with no one (BOD Members) wanting to discuss any of the compelling reasons. We can't let this happen again. I made the point that a BBS referendum is not accurate. I also brought up specific examples of how racers disproportionately get representation. "

Actually, for two years in a row a survey was passed out. The decision to split was made from the results of that survey. The questions regarding splitting from WERA were inside the survey, but not highlighted in such a way as to alert the affiliate.

I can't speak for the BoD at the time because I was not on it, but I recall the survey.

[m novak]

CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.

Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...

The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.

While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.

CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA.
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back.
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.

Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.

Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.

Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.

If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.

a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.

[m novak]

CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.

Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...

The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.

While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.

CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA.
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back.
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.

Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.

Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.

Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.

If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.

a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.

[Eric Kelcher]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Mark Novak:
CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.

Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...

The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.

While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.

CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.</div></div>Yes CCS did not do that I approached Brooks about that as it was mentioned that he wanted to sponsor a sprint class but real goal of club was to get endurance sponsor, Brooks instantly said he would do it, BOTH sprint and endurance! incredible support of the local regional racer/club <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA. </div></div>actually it was Blockworks and CCS did support it with logistics, I guess you could say that I introduced CMRA to CCS along with the 2000 CMRA BOD/officials <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back. </div></div>maybe not idea of tire, but a higher level than other clubs recieve and more classes; may, may not have recieved as much as current but that is a what if question <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.
Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.</div></div>most number of tracks available, most contingency sponsors, cheaper insurance, quick/correct contingency filing, most classes, assurance of uniform race day events by having all regions' officials meet and arrange daily race procedures (aka the Big Mac),year end final event open to all competitors, and that is just a few things I can think of vs independence <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.

Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.</div></div>depends on what the value you place on certain things like year end event, access to tracks nationwide, national promotion, direct access to Pro races(exact rules regionally and nationally), obtaining contingecy, then for the things that have real "value" like insurance ~1000 a weekend savings vs obtaining independently (but that value is skewed as CCS insurance provides more coverage earlier [less out of pocket vs medical expenses] and is with higher rated insurance company than we were with (in fact some tracks will no longer accept old insurance company since it was derated, and rates were 2001 compared to 2002 [think post9/11]), contingency program record keeping/filing, rulebooks, mailing expenses, licences, posters, computer scoring system, access to buy at group rates, now not all things are used by the club so do you asess a value to those products? so some is hard numbers, some is potential and some is less headache for club. so it really is not black and white it is a shade of gray that we must decide if that gray provides us with enough to be worth while expense <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.

a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.</div></div>And just for info sake the BOD of 99 season will surely admit the spending of the membership savings in points fund and year end "Great America Shootout" was a little over the cost savings as license production, contingency handling, and other expenses saw that year end at a loss that took two years to recover from. Plus rulebook did not really contain "rules" it was classes and the class stucture was good for our region (but for a national series?), but there were still classes that had fewer than 5 entries average a weekend and they were eliminated (vintage and three levels of classic) when CMRA joined CCS. And another thing to think about is the number of people that come to race with CMRA(~100 riders from out of region last year) because it is a CCS member and they do not have to purchase another license to come here. License fee did increase $25/yr/rider when we joined CCS so comparsion of what is sent to CCS for membership vs what would be saved do we compare at 100CCS license to 100cmra license or will license drop back to 75 for independent license?(100 for 4 track regional club is excessive and could hurt membership IMO) in which case the ~450 CMRA riders(50% of license fee goes to CCS) puts about 22.5k towards CCS a year but would give CMRA 11250 as independent(added membership money with $75license) so is it worth 11k? yes just in insurance savings but we pay almost 23k see this is a bunch of what ifs but just a broad overview of what is obtained/spent

Mark aka couch racer [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I used your post to give as much info as I have learned on this issue from the point we decided to join CCS to today as it asked the most straight questions adn hit what I thought were the most important points but also tried to answer some of the questions raised by Marcus and Emmett as I knew them.

[Eric Kelcher]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Mark Novak:
CMRA mission statement: The main purpose of the CMRA is to give its members the opportunity to race their motorcycles in a fair, safe, and enjoyable manner.

Right below that in the new riders info packet is says...

The CMRA is currently affiliatied with the Champion Cup Series...blah blah blah...giving the CMRA access to enormous resources.

While I am a blowhard by Marcus's definition, I am observant enough to recognize the following.

CCS did not get the $10k for the shogun endurance series.</div></div>Yes CCS did not do that I approached Brooks about that as it was mentioned that he wanted to sponsor a sprint class but real goal of club was to get endurance sponsor, Brooks instantly said he would do it, BOTH sprint and endurance! incredible support of the local regional racer/club <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CCS did not send the top points winners to Daytona...Eric Kelcher did, and CCS didn't introduce him to the CMRA. </div></div>actually it was Blockworks and CCS did support it with logistics, I guess you could say that I introduced CMRA to CCS along with the 2000 CMRA BOD/officials <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CCS did not get tire money for racers, I remember bib bucks from way back. </div></div>maybe not idea of tire, but a higher level than other clubs recieve and more classes; may, may not have recieved as much as current but that is a what if question <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CCS did not build the Endurance series here, the racers did. I'm a second generation CMRA endurance racer.
Where are these enormous resources mentioned to new members??? CCS seems to have failed to provide them.</div></div>most number of tracks available, most contingency sponsors, cheaper insurance, quick/correct contingency filing, most classes, assurance of uniform race day events by having all regions' officials meet and arrange daily race procedures (aka the Big Mac),year end final event open to all competitors, and that is just a few things I can think of vs independence <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Marcus-with all due respect, this discussion is pretty black and white in regards to CCS/CMRA affiliation.

Does CCS uphold their end of the affiliation bargin by providing ALL CMRA membership with enough resources to justify the cost associated with affiliation? Yes or No question.</div></div>depends on what the value you place on certain things like year end event, access to tracks nationwide, national promotion, direct access to Pro races(exact rules regionally and nationally), obtaining contingecy, then for the things that have real "value" like insurance ~1000 a weekend savings vs obtaining independently (but that value is skewed as CCS insurance provides more coverage earlier [less out of pocket vs medical expenses] and is with higher rated insurance company than we were with (in fact some tracks will no longer accept old insurance company since it was derated, and rates were 2001 compared to 2002 [think post9/11]), contingency program record keeping/filing, rulebooks, mailing expenses, licences, posters, computer scoring system, access to buy at group rates, now not all things are used by the club so do you asess a value to those products? so some is hard numbers, some is potential and some is less headache for club. so it really is not black and white it is a shade of gray that we must decide if that gray provides us with enough to be worth while expense <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you say yes...then logic dictates you remain with your current investment as the returns are acceptable for the cost.
If you say no...logic dictates that the investment is not a wise one, and other avenues should be sought to better utilize your capital.

a good analogy might be why you didn't see many (if any)experts contesting the F4I. Honda was not willing to give back to the racer, despite wanting the 8k for a bike. The cost/benifit ratio was too heavy on the Honda side. Haner could win on one, no doubt, but he chooses to support the manufacturer that offered him the greatest return on his investment.</div></div>And just for info sake the BOD of 99 season will surely admit the spending of the membership savings in points fund and year end "Great America Shootout" was a little over the cost savings as license production, contingency handling, and other expenses saw that year end at a loss that took two years to recover from. Plus rulebook did not really contain "rules" it was classes and the class stucture was good for our region (but for a national series?), but there were still classes that had fewer than 5 entries average a weekend and they were eliminated (vintage and three levels of classic) when CMRA joined CCS. And another thing to think about is the number of people that come to race with CMRA(~100 riders from out of region last year) because it is a CCS member and they do not have to purchase another license to come here. License fee did increase $25/yr/rider when we joined CCS so comparsion of what is sent to CCS for membership vs what would be saved do we compare at 100CCS license to 100cmra license or will license drop back to 75 for independent license?(100 for 4 track regional club is excessive and could hurt membership IMO) in which case the ~450 CMRA riders(50% of license fee goes to CCS) puts about 22.5k towards CCS a year but would give CMRA 11250 as independent(added membership money with $75license) so is it worth 11k? yes just in insurance savings but we pay almost 23k see this is a bunch of what ifs but just a broad overview of what is obtained/spent

Mark aka couch racer [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I used your post to give as much info as I have learned on this issue from the point we decided to join CCS to today as it asked the most straight questions adn hit what I thought were the most important points but also tried to answer some of the questions raised by Marcus and Emmett as I knew them.

[Allan Stevens]

OWW! My brain is starting to hurt.

[Allan Stevens]

OWW! My brain is starting to hurt.

[m novak]

Thanks for all the info Eric. I appreciate the time you took to get it out there.

and I can no longer be called couch racer,I have already been out once this year (track day, but its a start), and we are in the process of getting a motor squared for the six hour next month. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] gifford will be so proud. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Time will tell on the affiliation, I'll show up regardless of which way it goes. I trust the BOD to do what is best for every racer.

[m novak]

Thanks for all the info Eric. I appreciate the time you took to get it out there.

and I can no longer be called couch racer,I have already been out once this year (track day, but its a start), and we are in the process of getting a motor squared for the six hour next month. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] gifford will be so proud. [img]/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Time will tell on the affiliation, I'll show up regardless of which way it goes. I trust the BOD to do what is best for every racer.