So I guess the question for Walter will be can we run a 390 single in the series, and if so where? Because right now, unless I'm reading it wrong, the rules cap singles at 250.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Howard
Printable View
So I guess the question for Walter will be can we run a 390 single in the series, and if so where? Because right now, unless I'm reading it wrong, the rules cap singles at 250.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Howard
To be honest I would like to see at least the 500 class become a spec class. FYI Honda paid contingency on the CBR250 and CBR500 in 2013. $750 for a win in select classes at 6 events.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tiede
If the goal is to "port up" the affordable, spec-like nature of the 250 classes to 500cc bikes, allowing the KTM would be a mistake, in my opinion.
As I understand it from some quick googling, the KTM 390 Duke makes only slightly less power than the CBR500R but weighs 90-100 pounds less (stock for stock). Maybe I'm missing part of the picture, but that seems like a towering advantage in a class where 45-55 hp is probably going to be the norm, and the strictness of the rules precludes any substantial weight loss for the competing bikes (500 twins) that the class was clearly conceived to support.
-A
The 390 is almost 40KG lighter. I guess if I rode a heavy slow Asian bike I would not want a KTM in any class I raced either. Thank god I ride KTM's. That's ok the KTM 250 motard is legal and its lighter than the 390.
I am pleased with ESS being broken up, if only because I can run a WR250X in four sprint classes now. Actually five, if the motard class is still around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Howard
The figures I see put it a bit more than 40kg lighter, but whatever--in race trim that's probably close to correct as the Honda would likely be able to lose more weight from stock than the KTM. At any rate, I agree with you: the 390 looks like a great bike that would have a substantial advantage on the track over something like a CBR500R. Which absolutely means that, if the club's intent for the class is to keep it spec-ish for "heavy slow" 500 twins like the CBR500R (which seems obvious from the rules that are posted and Walter's remarks), it would be a mistake for the club to allow the KTM 390 in.
As for the KTM 250 motard, I can't find anything about this bike...is there a street-legal version on the way for 2014? If not, you might need to clarify with Walter whether that's actually a legal bike for the class. Motards are mentioned, but it's still a "Superstock" class and that may mean only motards that were originally street legal bikes (example: Yamaha WR250X) are allowed into it. As the motard rule is worded the same across all three (250/300/500) classes, one would think the same philosophy applies that kept the "real" dirt-bike based motards out of E Superstock.
Nothing against you or KTM at all--they are very impressive bikes. It's just that it's hard not to see a specific intent and spirit in this class as presented, and folks who want to bust it open to allow the machine they'd rather ride seem to be working against that. In addition to the 390, I've at least one call for 400cc multis and requests for two strokes. I don't know if those would be class killers or not, but all that sounds like Clubman, or the Formula 3 class that was created for 2013 that hardly anybody bothered to race in this season. If that's what Danny and Walter (who seem to be the driving forces behind this idea) were envisioning, they could have just moved F3 to Saturday, maybe trimmed out some of the bigger machines in that class, and called it a day.
This is just my take on it (I could be wrong about the intent here). It looks like a fun, affordable class, and I am glad to see the rules posted so early, as it gives those of us who are considering something like this but working with limited options more time to get something together (assuming it doesn't mutate into something else entirely). Thanks for that, Danny/Walter/others involved.
All the best,
-A
I totally support the concept of supporting a spec class, but wonder if it is too soon in the creation of a new spec class to exclude what may be the perfect spec class bike of the CMRA's future. The Duke 390 is the naked version of the RC390, which will have it's own spec class in Europe. We will probably not see the RC390 in the States in time for us next year, but it's light weight seems better suited to racing (and the development of our younger riders) than the CBR500. Watching the KTMs dominate Moto3 this year, I would hope that the street bike which seems to flow from that development effort could find a place in our classifications.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Walker
look at Ty getting all catty :lol:
that KTM is sex no doubt... of course, i am scared to even ask what the price tag is... or what the parts bill may be... or any of the other things that the prom queen requires...
personally, i would love to see the LWT Endurance to include all of the builder bikes, prom queens, and rat bikes that are similar in performance... if that is in a seperate F3ish class then so be it... it would not impact any of the superstock classes, but, allow the overall to be much more interesting...
IMHO... FWIW... and all that jazz
the KTM needs to be legal. not just because i want to build and ride one...but because it would add one more good, new, fuel injected bike to the class.
Lets see if KTM offers up any kind of contingency on either the Duke or the RC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Davis
MSRP is supposed to be around $5699 to the US market. Basically under $7K after taxes and fees. The plan is to stay in line with the CBR 500 for pricing.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Black
This bike is produced in India. The parts should be priced competitively or less than Japanese bike parts.
What does that matter? Does KTM have to pay to play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Walker
+1 :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Cagle
snippy snippy snap snap!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Howard
it would be a traveshamockery if this bike is not allowed on the grid of the LWT Endurance...
Not at all just curious. If that price is accurate my son may be on one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Howard
traveshamockery
Used to explain something that is a travesty, a sham and a mockery.
Found on the Miller Brewing Company "President of beers" commercial.
This whole thing is a travesty, a sham and a mockery...it's a traveshamockery!Yep had to Google it. Totally agree it would be a traveshamockery!!!
I may know someone that could hook him on one. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Walker
If I can come up with the money of course. :twitch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Howard
there is no reason for anyone to buy a CBR if that KTM is as advertised... that would be a way sexier grid than any of the white rice EX/CBR bikes with no soul...
Just to be clear I'm not against adding it in the 500 class I just want to be careful not to throw in something that might be an overdog. The whole idea is to group machines together with similar performance.
does anyone know for sure that the CBR makes less than 50hp?
i am a little shocked that is all they are making... that is less than an EX and on par with a GS... i have a hard time believing that is all they are pumping out
Hondapotumus!
if that is all they make, the GS that is being race prepped as we speak is looking a little less silly...
with the addition of faster bikes to the mini endurance (now lightweight). Will we still run the mini course at the various venues?
Finally someone asked the magic question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Boyd
That will depend on a number of things one of witch is how many of these older oddball bikes get indexed into the 500 class. The length and width of the course has a direct bearing on the track density (number of bikes a given course will support).
47 HP is the number I have seen in print. Something to do with the HP laws for 500cc in the euro market for the CBR. EX 500'S people!!! Plenty of cheap spares and probably half the racing cost of the CBR. Lets get this KTM thing sorted quick though! When do these new announced class rules become law? As soon as the ink dries in the new rulebook????
Will a CBR 500 even fit on the crossover in Houston?Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Walker
They'll go two wide with an elbow on your buddy for safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael De Simone
Its a lowest common denominator class. Like the two wheel version of a Legends car (although Legends cars probably weigh less). I think it is really sad that this is what racing has become but it still beats no racing at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Black
corder... believe you me, we park our cars in the same garage with what a real race bike shoud be... and i will always be indebted to you for making the minifest happen and giving me an opportunity to ride Oak Hill again before it closed, but...
you need to let it go... is what is... obli di obli da... ladies is pimps too, brush your shoulders off...
when i first started racing, i thought how silly the minis must be... until i had a kid and got laid off and had to quit racing for a year... i took a PW50 to a goat path kart track just to scratch the itch and found out it really doesn't matter what you race... hell, the trickiest, most cerebral racing i have ever done was on bone stock KLX110s with the stock knobbies on pavement... this is what we got so this is what we race...
we can all take solace in the fact that even racing a white rice 250/300/500 is still infinitely more awesomer than any after work intramural softball league...
now let's get that grass roots ground swell for the unlimited 2-S class to run along side these steve bikes...
I was looking at a cbr500 or a 390 duke as commuter bikes, now I will want to race it. :nono:
Just in case I ever finish my project bike!Quote:
Originally Posted by John Black
Agreed. Letting it go now.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Black
As far as the 2s class goes, I have 2 two strokes ready to go.
riding a slow bike fast will always be more fun than riding a fast bike slow. :cheers:
oh, and I am not lamenting the Poobah's class decision, but rather where motorcycling has gone over the last 4-5 years.
This thread is full of win!
Corder we may need to bring Black on to our team for a round or two so he can whiff the bean oil with us.
Our stuff is finalized WW but when we these rules be etched in stone so 2014 is properly planned for?
The more the merrier I say. Black has his love directed at the right place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Anderson
sorry to be fanatical about this stuff but love is what it is. I am nothing compared to Tad Murley. He gets borderline violent defending two strokes.
how much spare bodywork you got?
if i am on your team, bring it all...
we may be bringing the Mori back depending on what happens with the F4 rules...
here. ill write the rules real quick for this class.
500 Superstock - Up to 500CC Twin cylinder machines. No 450 motards. Bikes must have been sold as street legal machines. examples: Suzuki GS500, Honda CBR500, Kawasaki EX500, KTM 390 Duke/RC.
300 Superstock - Up to 300CC twin cylinder machines using superstock rules. 250cc machines using Superbike rules with standard bore and stroke. Bikes must have been sold as street legal machines.
250 Superstock - Up to 250CC twin and single cylinder machines using superstock rules. Kawasaki EX250, Yamaha WR250X motard.
Formula 4 - Up to 250cc water cooled four stroke twins. 100CC water cooled 2 stroke singles. 125CC air cooled 2 stroke singles. Up to 360cc, Pre 1974 aircooled twins, formula rules. No 250R dirtbike engines. Examples: EX250 motor in GP frame. aircooled 125CC 2 stroke in GP frame, EX250 using formula rules.
Actually I like most of this Jesse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Davis
I'm still not sure about the KTM but I guess we can pull it out if it turns out to be a world beater.
I'm also concerned about allowing the 250s to go to Superbike rules even though we all know that several already have.
As for F4 I want to leave the 250cc twins out (for endurance only that is to keep 250 teams from cherry picking in F4) and up the displacement of the real F4 machines a bit to make them more competitive.
fair enough.
i dont think the KTM is going to be a world beater. it makes less hp and has a gallon smaller gas tank than the honda. its only real black and white advantages are chassis parts and geometry, and 100lb weight advantage. I really think its a good match.
as for F4 - id love to see 250 water cooled singles in GP frames, but they would be ridiculously fast. The current F4 bikes arent really that outmatched by the 250s, there just arent very many fast people on them....and the ones that are, blow up or break constantly. IMO an F4 machine should be competitive enough to contend for an overall win in endurance. Maybe allow 250cc water cooled R-type motards in superstock trim with 17" wheels?
give F4 at least MX125 2-S water cooled motors to play with...
THIS brings a huge smile to my face. HUGE, happy, smile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Walker
Sure. 125 water cooled 2 strokes. Mandatory stock capacity fuel tanks, no dry break, and minimum 4 hour races :)
top 3 in each class mandatory post race tear down?
( :wink: )
Walter, thanks for letting us bounce ideas off you like this. We can't all get what we want but it is great to see that everyone's ideas are considered. I say bring F4 up to 150 water cooled 2 strokes , let the 250 4t tards in too if they want to play. Jesse's class structures otherwise do look good. I have GP chassis with expanded tanks and dry breaks, we just need to know what kinda motors we need to build to compete. I'm fine with post race tear down as well, hell I'll pull the 4 bolts off the head for ya...
^^ daddy likes
Claiming rule.....:)
I got singles!!!!!!!
Make it rain!Quote:
Originally Posted by John Black
Is this a new thing?
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2013/10/1...imamotor-show/