UPDATED! 11/23/13 2014 Rule and Class Structure changes

[Walter Walker]

Every time I here statements like "invested financially big time" or have a ton of money tied up in" or "spent a fortune on" followed by Ninja 250 I want to scream!!! I just go in a closet and beat my head against the wall!

The class we created for these bikes was called E Superstock. Modifications were limited to suspension, exhaust, gearing, jetting, and reluctantly pod air filters. That was it, nothing more.

Then we screwed up and allowed the 250s into F4 so they could be raced in Mini Endurance. Yes we screwed up because this decision ultimatly drove the true minis out of Mini Endurance. Then some took this allowance to mean that now engines could be modified since it was a Formula class. I know this for a fact because several riders and tuners asked me about it. Nevermind the fact that the rulebook clearly stated that the 250s were limited to SS rules. Other riders that did not ask started making illegal modifications to there bikes. Those that have raced ESS and F4 for a while will agree that a few bikes out there have had noticeably different exhaust notes and seemed to be much stronger than others. Since none of those riders were front runners everyone turned a blind eye to it including me. I trully regret that that decision.

Now we find ourselves in a position to start with a clean slate with two new platforms. We can make these classes true riders classes. We have a chance to keep cost and spending under control here. Sadly many of our racers today are conditioned to believe that you can't race a motorcycle without spending $10,000 on mods first. This perception is the single greatest obstical standing it the way of potential new member!

I started this thread to try and give everyone a head start on next season. Instead it has become a collection of personal agendas and pissing matches with some honest discussion and ideas mixed in. Thanks to those that participated. I will continue to add items to the list as they come up. As for weather or not we will or will not have spec classes in LW sprints or endurance or both or neither is up to the BOD now. I have to move on to other things that need my attention.

[Bill Klindworth]

Walter it looks like we can set up a CBR500 like the European Junior cup racer with the exception of NO race gas & NO quick shifter - correct ?

Pics look like they modified the sub frame to delete the tubing for the license plate / brake light assembly (or use a custom subframe)- the OEM is steel tubing protruding downward
Would that mod be legal?

link:
http://www.europeanjuniorcup.com/ejc/cbr500r/

Honda CBR500R technical information

Engine type	Liquid-Cooled, parallel twin
Displacement & Bore x Stroke	471cm3 / 67 x 66.8mm
Max. Power Output	54 bhp at rear wheel
Max. Torque	48 Nm/7,000 rpm
ECU	Dynojet Power Commander V module
Exhaust	Full racing exhaust system
Suspension - Front	Andreani 20 mm cartridge unit (Fully adjustable for preload, compression, rebound and spring rate)
Suspension - Rear	Ohlins S46HR1C1L with remote preload adjuster (Fully adjustable for preload, compression, rebound and spring rate)
Fairing & Protection	Plastic Bike full race fairing with F.Fabbri race windscreen Fe...bur lightweight aluminium instrument and fairing holder. MikyMotor race paintwork.
Chain & Sprockets	RK race chain / CHT Chiaravalli race sprockets
Dimensions (LxWxH)	2,075 x 740 x 1,145mm
Transmission	6 speed race sequence. HM quick shifter.
Seat	Race-seat removable pad.
Fuel	Racing fuel. 95 MOn.
Lubricants	Motul lubricants
Brakes	Motodex / HEL competition brakelines. Rizoma brake guard. SBS racing pads.
Dry weight	146 Kg

[John Black]

so, they are dropping weight by 80lbs and adding 11+hp to the rear wheel?

[David Tiede]

I started this thread to try and give everyone a head start on next season. Instead it has become a collection of personal agendas and pissing matches with some honest discussion and ideas mixed in. Thanks to those that participated. I will continue to add items to the list as they come up. As for weather or not we will or will not have spec classes in LW sprints or endurance or both or neither is up to the BOD now. I have to move on to other things that need my attention.

Yes Walter, yours is a thankless job, but we really appreciate you doing it.

For one, I think you're on the right track with the LW endurance concept, and the attempt to make an affordable and fair way for us to compete in a very successful class, and to make way for the machines currently being manufactured (and darn you KTM for not getting your product out there soon enough to make next season even more confusing). I know we all have our own preferences but I'm sure that you and the BOD will get us on the right path.

I think that one thing that this thread shows is how much excitement we having going for next season already, and that is a good thing. I know I started planning for next season on the Monday after TWS. I'm hoping to figure some of this stuff out myself so some decisions can be made, so any updates on rules and potential kit packages for the new classes will be eagerly anticipated.

Thanks again!

[John Black]

I agree that the LGWT Endurance has got me pretty excited... I also like the idea of a policed spec class... maybe the BOD can see fit to make some sort of MUTT class that would allow some of the older and/or less cookie cutter bikes that are performance wise perfect for this class to participate... seems to me that we have at least 8 bikes that have been mentioned in this thread that would make the endurance much more fun to be a part of... who doesn't want to see hertell try to keep a RD350/400 together for a 5 hr? or McDermott's ample backside hustling a CR125 in a proper chassis? I personally cut my teeth racing on an EX500 (a moment of silence for Kermit) and would be tickled pink seeing several of those out there running around... I have LoPan trying to bust through the plywood floor of my building right now just asking to be on a diet and giving the chance to shine again... this could be better than the Mother/Daughter beauty pageant swimsuit competition...

[John Black]

I swear I would have used a return if I could have...

[Heinz Roy]

Yes Walter, yours is a thankless job, but we really appreciate you doing it.

For one, I think you're on the right track with the LW endurance concept, and the attempt to make an affordable and fair way for us to compete in a very successful class, and to make way for the machines currently being manufactured (and darn you KTM for not getting your product out there soon enough to make next season even more confusing). I know we all have our own preferences but I'm sure that you and the BOD will get us on the right path.

I think that one thing that this thread shows is how much excitement we having going for next season already, and that is a good thing. I know I started planning for next season on the Monday after TWS. I'm hoping to figure some of this stuff out myself so some decisions can be made, so any updates on rules and potential kit packages for the new classes will be eagerly anticipated.

Thanks again!

I agree....there's lots of excitement and anticipation for next year.

Walter, I (and I know darn near everyone - can't think of anyone who doesn't) appreciates the hard work you and the BoD put in giving us a place to play.

My "tons of money" goes to our son's grad school...my poor ol' 250 will be getting lever guards tho!

See you and everyone else at the banquet! I'll be sitting at or near the bar...

[Eric Falt]

Save more money and have More fun !!!!!! That is a concept that will have many of us squealing with delight when this LW Endurance gets going !!!

[Javier Martinez-Abrego]

Original post has been updated.

Walter, Rules does not say anythin about Brake components: Brake pads, Brake lines & Brake disc.

What is the ruling on this?

[Brian Millsap]

The fact you posted those numbers shows that you are not quite sure what is actually going on... No biggie...

So how does WW determine what bikes are competitive in which classes? Where are the mysterious 'true' numbers that I seem to be too ignorant to find? What are the 'real' numbers? Seriously. What are they? Maybe you're right. Maybe I just don't have a clue.

It is obvious that you are relatively new to the sport and that is okay as well, but, know that there was racing before 2010...

Why is that obvious and more importantly why does that matter?

I believe that there is a place for true minis as a learning tool for the little dudes that are coming through the ranks... I also believe that what has happened in the club and the industry as a whole is not necessarily what is the best for a youngster in terms of coming up through the ranks... As a long term racer and as a parent of a little dude that has chosen this sport it concerns me... I also know that Walter is also in the same boat as me as far as bringing a child up through the ranks...

While I don't disagree with you, in my limited time in the CMRA, the 'true' mini riders(and their parents) have been given several opportunities to fill the grids. Each time they did not. Should we just set aside time each weekend for a class where there are little to no entries and continue to do so indefinitely? I may be new here but I know there is only so many hours of daylight in a race day and I've seen races cut by a couple laps at plenty of those days. There are so many 'true' mini racers that claim they are being squeezed out and there is no place for them but then have to offer up excuses as to why they did not take advantages of the opportunity when it was given.

I also believe that if you have never ridden a real race bike then you are missing out on one if the true real joys of this world...

Just an FYI I have raced a big bike. And did pretty well too. Didn't win any championships but passed a few guys in the A class that were bumped to EX. I enjoy the 250 much more.

Since I'm obviously such a newb though and am obviously clueless as to what's truly happening here I guess, once again, I'll excuse myself and my point of view from the discussion. It just makes me so sad to know that this is one of my major sources of joy and there's nothing I can do to influence the powers that be.


Walter-I have dropped TONS of money in my 250. At least to me it was TONS. lol Racing ain't cheap. Even if it's a 250. Most was in motors. This year was not such a good year for me and motors. My original crapped out after two years of track days, sprint races and backup for our endurance team. The rebuild didn't even make it past the second sprint race on Saturday at Hallett before it threw a rod through the block. Next was an ebay motor. It lasted the 4HR at Cresson and about 2HR of the 4HR at TWS before it started running like sh*t. We finished but at about 1/2 pace. The next one, again, didn't even make it to the race. The head gasket took a crap Friday after lunch. We were up until 3AM swapping the motor out of our B bike. So yeah I think I've spent enough $$$ on my 250 motors alone to be more than ashamed. That being said, I know that this is expensive and expect ZERO return on the money I "invest" in my bikes and racing in general. Hell, many times I don't even fill out the forms for contingency because it doesn't really amount to anything in the grand scheme. I'm fortunate to be able to afford to race and no do so on a shoestring budget. I don't have to win to be able to afford tires. If I can't afford them then I don't race. Same for fuel, repairs, etc. Every bike I tack to the track and all the goodies on it are 100% completely expendable. The way look at it is that if I can't afford to throw it in the dumpster on my way out of the track then it doesn't belong on the track. No matter how much money is "invested" in it. That's why I can't, and won't buy a "new" 500 to stay competitive.